Next month my one and only child will turn 18! Yeah, that’s right, I said 18. Can you believe it?
One of my favorite things to do is get reactions from people when I tell them this. When I take my daughter out for coffee or out to a restaurant, I have to prepare myself for the dirty looks that people usually throw my way. A guy I know, who recently saw me at a coffee shop having coffee & emphatic conversation with my daughter, later told me that he was concerned about me counseling young girls by myself. You should have seen the look on his face when I told him that the young girl was my daughter. He was stunned! When we’re out, most people guess that we’re a couple, that we’re cousins, that we’re brother & sister, but not one time has anyone ever guessed that we’re father and daughter!
I have to admit that makes me feel pretty good. No one likes to look old, and I am certainly no exception. As my daughter’s 18′th birthday fast approaches, I have been doing a lot of thinking and reminiscing about her life and our parenting of her over the years. As young parents, there were certainly plenty of challenges. I have also been thinking about leadership under the law, leadership in the church, and how parenting will lead to a picture of both. In light of these thoughts, I would like to share with you what I believe are three monumental truths that I think you might find offensive and yet liberating at the same time.
Parenting Young Children Was Easier For Me Because It Was A Picture Of The Law
When I think back to the days when my daughter was a little child, parenting was much simpler and more defined. The relationship between my daughter and my wife & I back then was certainly more hierarchical to say the least. We told her when to eat, how much she had to eat before leaving the table, when to take a nap, when to go to bed, how to respond to people, and how she should respond to us as parents. There was no persuasion involved in her obeying the commands we gave her. We said it, she had to do it. If she did not obey what we told her to do, there were consequences. She learned quickly that we were in control, not her. The relationship was most definitely hierarchical.
I could never understand parents of little children who felt like they had to negotiate simple commands with their children. Children don’t have the capacity to think in complex ways and therefore need their parents to set boundaries for them and make decisions for them. When our daughter was little, we literally were in charge of most aspects of her young life. It seemed simple and easy.
As our daughter grew older, we knew that would entail more freedom. That was never easy as mistakes, (both on her end as a young person and on our end as parents), were made with this new freedom. Freedom brought more choices and more potential for mistakes. Every time these things occurred, I longed for the simpler days of the past when my daughter was younger and there was simply less choices and more rules.
The older she becomes, the less that hierarchy is a part of our relationship. As my daughter approaches adult life, she is making more and more decisions on her own. A few years from now, the dynamic will change even further, especially if she gets married. As a result of this, I have realized that the way I lead my daughter must and should radically change from the way that I led her when she was a child. If the way I led her at 5, 15, and 25 stayed the same, that would be just plain weird.
If we look in the Old Testament, we can see the same thing. God’s people literally had to be told what to do in almost every aspect of life through the Law. This was to show them the character and nature of God’s holiness, and it was also meant to protect them as well.
When my daughter was young, she needed a lot of external guidance to help her make the right choices. Now that she is older, she must rely on an internal guidance to guide her decision making process. Does my adult daughter still need leadership in her life? Absolutely. I still believe that I need to have a leadership role in her adult life, but this role will be more as a persuasive leader than a hierarchical one. This brings me to my second point:
Parenting Adults Is Harder For The Same Reason That Church Leadership Is Non-Hierarchical
Most parents with adult children that I have talked to have found out (the easy way or the hard way) that it takes more than an appeal to hierarchy to lead them. Don’t believe me? Try telling your 25 year old son or daughter that he or she cannot get up from the dinner table until they eat all of their lima beans. If they try to defy your command, tell them you are their parent, and the Bible says children are supposed to obey their parents. (That is an appeal to hierarchy) Let me know how that works out for you.
Obviously, that is a ridiculous example, but you get the point. At this point in their lives, you want them to be governed by something internal. This is a picture of life in the kingdom. Before Pentecost, the people of God were not grafted into His Son. They had to be governed by an external law. After God’s people were grafted into the Son at Pentecost, they were now governed by the indwelling Spirit of Christ. According to Galatians 5:18, those who operate by this indwelling Spirit cannot operate under the law. When we are governed by the Spirit of Christ and of life, we no longer need to be governed by the law of sin and death.
As I mentioned, this greatly affects leadership in the kingdom of God. We can see this radical shift from Law based leadership to kingdom based leadership in Jesus’ own statement about kingdom leadership:
But do not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers…Do not be called leaders, for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. (Matthew 23:8, 10)
This was a profoundly radical teaching on leadership in Jesus’ day, and it is still radical. This goes against the world’s system of leadership, and that includes the world’s religious system of leadership as well. Notice the reason behind the new understanding of leadership. It is because ‘ALL’ are brothers, and there is only one leader who stands as head over them. That is Christ. This removes the possibility of human hierarchy. (I told you it was a radical teaching by Jesus)
Although Jesus’ teaching about kingdom leadership should be the grid and filter through which we understand all the other passages in the New Testament regarding church leadership, this has unfortunately not been the case. I speak from experience as a Bible college graduate and as a former institutional Pastor. What I was taught completely ignored & contradicted the heart and spirit behind Jesus’ teaching on kingdom leadership in Matthew 23:8-12. Instead, I was taught to emphasize passages of scripture that seemed to suggest hierarchical church leadership in the absence of the framework that Jesus laid down in Matthew 23:8-12.
While I could give you numerous examples of this, for the sake of brevity, let me just focus on one verse that is regularly taken out of context in order to promote a false view of hierarchical church leadership. As an institutional Pastor, I regularly used this verse incorrectly to appeal back to hierarchy. The verse is Hebrews 13:17:
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
When taken as a stand alone verse, this verse does seem to imply a hierarchical form of church leadership. If we keep in mind what Jesus taught in Matthew 23, however, there has to be another explanation. If we’ll look at this passage from Hebrews closer, we’ll see that this verse is not hierarchical at all. As a matter of fact, it is just the opposite! Let me explain.
There are a couple of Greek words that can be translated as ‘obey’ in the New Testament. The most common Greek word for ‘obey’ is the word (‘Hupakouo’) and signifies a hierarchical and authoritative understanding of obedience. That, however, is NOT the Greek word that is used in Hebrews 13:17 for ‘obey’! Are you surprised? The Greek word that is used for ‘obey’ is actually the word (‘Peitho’) which literally means ‘to persuade’ or ‘to win over’. The Greek word for ‘submit’ is the word (‘Hupeiko) which means to ‘yield’. Greek scholar W.E. Vine says this about Hebrews 13:17:
The obedience suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.
That changes things a bit doesn’t it? Can you imagine a military commander trying to ‘persuade’ the troops under his command? Can you imagine a parent trying to ‘persuade’ their child not to run out into heavy traffic? It wouldn’t work very well.
Persuasive leadership, however, is exactly the kind of leadership that is suitable for my adult daughter now, and is the kind of leadership that only works within the church. I would like to say that just because we are governed by the indwelling Spirit of Christ, this does not mean that we do not need to receive leadership. For example, my adult daughter still needs leadership in her life. It simply means that this leadership is persuasive in nature, and ultimately she is in control of her choices. I cannot mandate her obedience based on hierarchy anymore. Trust me, that would be much simpler, but ultimately this would not be good for her. This is also true in church life as well.
We are commanded to be a people that allows our leaders to persuade us, and as leaders, we would do well to appeal to persuasion rather than hierarchy. If you study the cults, they usually have leaders that demand obedience based on position or rank, certainly not persuasion. Honestly, this sounds a lot like how the world’s religious system operates as well.
As a dad, In some ways, I am finding it harder to parent my daughter now that she is older. There are things I desperately want to show her, and ways that I want to direct her that have to do with her well being. She has to desire that guidance, however. It cannot be forced. I have found that it is only when people recognize that they have issues, that they begin to look for help with those issues.
It is only when people, or church communities, are willing to recognize that they have issues and need help with those issues that they are willing to be persuaded by leadership. Until then, it can be a painful waiting game. Sometimes people and groups become more open to being persuaded by leadership when they get desperate. Many times it is hardship, failure, and brokenness that eventually lead to desperation and openness to being led. As a parent, or as one who loves the church, that can be painful to watch.
There are many more passages in the New Testament (like Hebrews 13:17) that need to be re-examined from outside of an institutional hierarchical filter. A great resource that throughly examines biblical passages about church leadership, as well as many other related issues, is a book called ‘Reimagining Church’ by Frank Viola. I highly recommend it. If you’d like to look into these things a bit further, please purchase a copy of that book. Click here to purchase a copy of this book online. This bring me to my third and final point:
Most ‘Institutional’ Church Leadership Is Designed To Control The Masses, But True Biblical Leadership Is Designed To Persuade The Few
‘More is better’ in the world’s way of looking at things. If you look at the way Jesus did things, however, the opposite seems to be true. As soon as Jesus obtained a large following, He seemed to say or do something that drove the masses away. For example, when someone came to Him telling Him they would follow Him anywhere, He seemed to not make it easy by telling them that He was homeless. Jesus was always weeding out people.
Jesus did not lead the masses, and the masses were fickle. They turned on Him pretty quickly. Jesus seemed to focus on the hungry few however. He shepherded those in the community that served and followed Him. Jesus was the ultimate shepherd (pastor). Do you know what the basis of this pastor / sheep relationship was? It was an intimate knowing of one another. In John 10:14, Jesus says:
I Am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me
This is beautiful. This was not just a theoretical quote by Jesus. He really did know the sheep He was shepherding. The ‘knowing’ of one another is key. Shepherding is a component of the life of Christ that is demonstrated in the body of Christ, and it will come about because of a relational knowledge of one another.
I am always amazed when I talk to people at large Mega Church institutions that refer to the man who preaches to them behind the pulpit weekly as their ‘Pastor’. Sometimes I ask them if they know the person personally. Nine times out of ten, the answer is “No, not really”. Most institutional ‘Pastors’ are busy people. Most have never shared a meal with their ‘Pastor’. Most have not spent a significant amount of time with them. There is simply no personal relationship there. It is all formal. When I ask them: “On what basis is that guy who stands behind the pulpit week in and week out your pastor?” I usually get a response that goes back to title, not relationship like Jesus demonstrated and taught in John 10:14.
I could say much more about all of that, but you get the point. If you want to control a large group of people, you simply teach people to submit to titles, offices, and positions. This is what governments do, this is what employers do, and this is what the institutional church system does as well. In the kingdom, however, it is much different. Jesus appeals to His relational knowledge of us, and us of Him.
In the church that Jesus envisioned, and in the case of my soon to be 18 year old daughter, true leadership will have to depend on something much more profound than title or hierarchy, however. Just some food for thought.
For His Bride,
Jamal Jivanjee
Love this post. Think it’s my favorite you’ve written.
Your discussion of persuading totally reminded me of this post on the word ‘exhort’ written by a friend of mine- http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/478
Eric,
Brother, just read this article. Thx for sharing this with me. Some beautiful points brought up there:) Appreciate it!
This article on leadership is very well laid out. Since I have a 5 and 2 yr old I can relate to the first part pretty well and it gave me some great food for thought for the coming years ahead.
I have like you been in a title based leadership role (i.e. pastor) of a church before. I am several years removed from that and now see it as being an actual hindrance to the fullness of Christ’s expression in His body that I so much wanted to see and raise up. You did a great job pointing out the Hebrews 13:17 verse and laying it in a context that is real and in line with Christ’s words and actions. I find that that verse is so misused and it truly needs to be redeemed.
Since I have been meeting for the past couple of years with a number of saints under the headship of Christ alone I have come to witness and experience through my own life the true shepherding of the Lord. I fully concur and say from first hand experience that leadership is most definitely relational otherwise it is more superficial. I have also come to understand that there is only one shepherd of the sheep and that is Christ. It bothers me so much when I hear leaders (brothers and sisters in Christ) refer to their brethren as their own sheep. What a perversion this is. Now hear me out having done this and been there I understand that mostly this is due to having such a burden and desire to see God’s people know, serve and love Him. However, this desire is the Lord Jesus Himself and many of have taken upon themselves His work and attached a title and office to it to help them officiate that which is their hearts. That of course is looking at the positive side. We know there are abuses a rampant as well.
But back to my point. I have come to realize that He shepherds His people through His people in a relational setting. This calls out for community life among the saints. Yes there are those within the community who are gifted and graced with the expression of the heart of the Shepherd more than others are but as Paul wrote the Spirit wills it and we are all members one of another. So it is not about position over in fact I have found the proper attitude and approach concerning the expression of pastoring/teaching to be I am also a brother with you under our Lord Jesus sharing His life with you.
Then the ministry is truly His life, His words, His comfort, His teaching being given as we are sensitive to His Spirit working in that situation or relationship. Leaders in the body of Christ are respected brothers and sisters within the community of the saints. They themselves share that respect with other leaders and elevate in their own estimation those among them and they serve the saints not from a place of leadership or position of leadership but from a place of sensitivity, responsibility and obedience to the life of the True Shepherd within.
I hope this makes sense the way I shared it here.
Seth,
Wow brother, what you shared here is incredibly valuable. You have lived this out, and are living this out in body life, and it comes across very clearly. I wish everyone could experience what you have described here.
Also, I know exactly what you mean by others referring to the sheep, as ‘their sheep’. That is certainly a sign of undue ownership and attempted headship. The sheep truly and only belong to the chief shepherd, which is Christ. I appreciate what you said about the ministry of shepherding. It truly is His ministry, His life, His words, His comfort. What a difference that is.
I love you bro, and I appreciate your contribution immensely!
Amen & Amen!
“Feed My sheep” <——— That is a picture of a Pastor
Great insight on that article brother. What stood out is leadership is interpersonal, not a heirarchy. Jesus never set up an ecclesiastical superstructure for his body.
When I was with a church years ago that had a strong emphasis on evangelism and discipleship one portion of scripture cried out to me the most. And that is Gal. 5:25 “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” And when the body functions the way Jesus intends for it we are truly walking in the Spirit not only as individuals but as a body.
Thanks for the refocus (for me) on Heb. 13:17. That is so true and few understand it, or willing to.
Clark,
I’m very glad to know that you were encouraged through this article. Hebrews 13:17 is a vital passage of scripture to correctly understand in regards to leadership. It is a shame that it has been twisted and taken out of context.
Thanks for reading and commenting brother:)
Wow.. that’s a lot of meaty food for thought Jamal. Two things:
1) I have 2 small boys and have really been thinking a lot lately about parenting by law vs. grace. I’ve also been reading through Romans and struggling with the idea that the more we emphasize the law (rules keeping system) the more prone people are to rebel. I see that clearly in small children as well as adults. You tell the kid not to touch the cookie jar (tree of knowledge of good and evil) and no sooner do you turn your back that you find them with crumbs on their faces. With kids though we have to enforce boundaries and discipline but in so doing we are only increasing the craving to rebel. Hmm… You’ve given me much to consider.
2) The Church is full of spiritual children and adults (regardless of physical age) which creates some interesting dynamics and tension at times. Fundamentalists are quite irritating to me, but at the same time I remind myself that we all started there, with the fundamentals. it’s just that at some point you have to grow up don’t you? Why are so many content to remain spiritual babies and appeal to God according to law instead of his grace?
Thanks for the comments Craig. I hear what you are saying. We begin by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is part of the problem. In the religious ‘system’, we dress that tree up with good things that seem right, but the problem is that it is the wrong tree. It is all about our efforts and acts of righteousness. What we really need is to receive from the other tree, which is the tree of life. That is the other tree in the garden, so to speak. The tree of Life is Jesus Christ.
What is needed is for us to live by this tree. In the system, all we are shown is one tree.
I wish I could jump up and say, “Hallelujah, at last !!” for your excellent word on sheep and
shepherd relationship. I think it is absolutely what I have sought repeatedly in my 41 years
as a child of God. Unfortunately, I have been the victim of “shepherding, discipleship school,
large church controlled cell groups, etc” and I always walk away as the one that couldn’t submit
to authority and was plaqued with depression that I must be a hopeless rebel. Is there no place
for a “sheep’ voice? Are sheep questions invalid in the face of authority? I was railed at on two
occasions for questioning what seemed to be the last word command delivered in the teaching
to the group. I believe in what you say but I fear the cost of trusting again. Not to say I am just
a victim of other people; I learn from these things and use it for insight on “what not to do” to my grown offspring. I also struggle with giving strong advice to my daughter over a car she is
having costly problems with. Persuasion didn’t work, and she bought it. ” I told you so” will not
work so I have to silently watch her throw her money in a dark hole of car repairs. Your teaching may not have shown all the light at the end of my tunnels, but I am comforted that
a man of integrity walks this tunnel with me……..and oh yeah, Jesus is in these valleys as well!
So why does our flesh not rejoice in the valleys of the shadow??
Jimmy,
I know exactly where you are coming from. I praise God that He is freeing you from condemnation and fear stemming from your past situations. That itself will make a world of difference in your life. Understanding what true leadership really is will free us from the false guilt that comes from a mis-representation, and a misunderstanding of true church leadership.
I know exactly how you feel as it pertains to parenting as well. Thanks so much for reading and commenting brother!
Jimmy, my brother…I responded to your post further on down..didn’t see the reply word on the right lower corner…so if’n ya wanna scroll down..you’ll find it…again–THANKYOU for your honesty and candor…I really related!!
This is a great article. The “Persuasive Leadership” point will be very useful to me in the future. Jamal I really believe God is training you for an 21st Century Apostolic Ministry that will help further the plans of God for the Body. There is so much that needs to change in the mentality of people concerning leadership. I always say “Christianity is NOT a Pyramid Scheme”. Every church that has this false leadership style is a revolving door of wounded people that are looking for help. One pastor that I know said “Its just like how the Oil was poured on Aaron the Priest, it started at the head and ran down through the beard and garments”. He was trying to explain how his version of church hierarchy worked. That the head (head pastor of course) gets the best of the anointing, and it falls through the hierarchy until it reaches those at the bottom of the totem pole. This kind of an attitude strips the Body of their personal use and function. Many of these pastors are skilled public speakers and marketers. Usually they can play instruments, sing, prophesy, etc etc. And this causes everyone to let them do all the work and they love it. Many of them are ex businessmen who can calculate the tithe and offerings and know what to say to people and how to say it to gain influence. Oh yes and most of them left a possible professional sports career to become a pastor. Musically talented, athletic, spiritually gifted, great speaker. And the perfect dictatorship tool to control a group of people. I was bitter for a few years after learning that this was really how the Church operates and gave up on it. But God has shown me that I am to be part of the solution and can help make a change. In church, out of church, over here over there. Really to navigate the mess that the church has become takes incredible skill, and it is a painful process. When scripture says “Judgment Starts at the House of God”. I really believe the harshest of these judgments will hit those who claim to be the “Head” of the church. The 5Fold Ministry is NOT the Head. The 5Fold Ministry is the Hands. And the Hands are designed to work and get dirty. The Charismatic Movement seems to have just taken the hierarchy of the catholic church and adjusted a few things. Now everyone wants to be an Apostle because that is the first on the list (So that must be the easiest and most rewarding job). The 5Fold Totem Pole needs to come down. Chuck Pierce the well known prophet even changed his title to apostle recently. Really? After being a prophet for 30 years you just turned into an apostle? I watched a small clip of him recently and he is still prophesying and doing the same thing. But he apparently wanted to go one step higher on the totem pole from prophet to apostle to make himself feel better. I had a dream that seemed to explain where this whole nightmare started. I saw the prophet William Branham on TV. He looked like Rock Hudson and he was talking about how the Pentecostals are “Stinkin Holy”. Then I saw him on a hillside preaching. And there were all sorts of groupies around the pulpit (Not all female but both genders wanting to get in on his influence and anointing). When I woke up God said, “I am going to raise you up in a way so that no man will follow YOU”. I believe that the Holiness Movement (1890-1920about) created a sort of “Fear of Disobeying your Pastor”. And the current culture that we have in Charismatic type churches. “Stinkin Holy” means it is absolutely offensive to God and not true Holiness. Also as Radio and Television became popular people learned how to influence the crowds to gain a following. I believe that even though the church at this time seemed to reject radio/movies etc with a false sense of Holiness. The preachers of this era were influenced by the type of treatment that these newly famous secular individuals received. In hidden jealousy they began to slowly build their own kingdoms and create a Church culture in which a few individuals were the chosen and select few that lead the masses. Then of course the Christian Groupies appeared, people who followed Branham/Hagin/Graham Etc. Many of these people started their own churches with the intent of having their own crowds. Kenneth Hagin and Rhema College is a very dictator like environment. Kenneth Hagin directly disobeyed the scripture (Matthew 28:8-10) by allowing people to call him “Papa Hagin”. This seems like a very innocent title, but what it does is creates a hierarchy. If hes the Papa, then the people that kiss his butt the most are going to gain his approval. I believe Kenneth Hagin, William Branham, Oral Roberts were all true believers, but none of these types of people will challenge the current culture and release people the way God has truly designed. Arthur Burk is the only current prophet that I know that has any new revelation for the Body of Christ. But he also seems to love his position and title and influence. I also had a dream where I was leaving a giant megamall (This was me leaving the Word of Faith Movement). I ended up in a filthy bathroom with the pastor of the church I was attending. He was trying to unclog a toilet with a plunger. I told him “that will never work you have to do something different”. He would not listen. Then suddenly a Giant Tsunami Wave crashed into the bathroom and he and all of his groupies started screaming for help. I got on my knees and could breathe underwater by praying in tongues. When this Tsunami Event happens (I believe its going to be when America really crashes), this pastor and the Word of Faith Movement are going to be humbled, and that’s when people like Jamal will REALLY be released to change the mindsets of the Body. Until then people are going to love their false hierarchies and noone will listen. But God Almighty IS going to bring Evidence that no one can deny, that we really need change.
Thanks for sharing. I appreciate you taking the time to read and offer your perspective. You have shared quite a bit. A lot to think about. I appreciate the encouraging words as well. Blessings!
Jamal, we all have been changing in our thinking on grace and works and how grace does not give us the permission to do what we want, yet how we need to obey the scriptures as the Holy Spirit leads us. I see that the Holy Spirit leads us with gentle guidance and like you say persuasion. Now I can see it. He woos us constandly until we can see it from His perspective. I like this about Him and how Jesus teaches us is the same way. I didn’t have the words for it until now. Of course I had to check on you Jamal and look up the word “obey” in the Greek and sure enough it tells us that the word is indeed “peitho” meaning to convince and to persuade. It is number 3982 in the Greek dictionary in your Strongs Concordance. I like your example you made with your daughter. The simplest examples always works the best and in the areas we can understand. All of us with growing children and adult children completely understand what you are telling us. This was an excellent article. Thank you very much!
Mary,
Thanks for reading, and thanks for that reference from Strongs Concordance. I know that will be helpful for some who read here. Praise God for the journey that He has us all on!
Great analogy Jamal…
Thanks for reading Matthew! Miss you guys:)
Love it! So true!! So many parallels between how the private family run on a small scale from day to day and the Church. The problem is when we have disfuctional families trying to “lead.” Elders (1 Tim 5:1-2) in the New Testament Church made a difference by living their daily lives before the Church. The older women’s “pulpit” may have been their kitchen stove while cooking for the Body of Christ. The older man’s may have been the front porch sittin’ around with the fella’s watchin’ the little one’s play.
Just as our children go through learning stages we do too as God builds the house of God…
1.) Knowledge- Learning the basics, rule, Laws, or facts (usually one way proclamation) Genesis-Mal.
2.) Understanding- Learning how to use those facts (demonstration with two way communication) Jesus in the Gospels
3.) Wisdom- Independently released (acts using knowledge and understanding in REAL LIFE) Acts- Rev.
When Churches camp out on one aspect of “who God is” too much without balance we really do the Body of Christ a disservice. The way to avoid this to to have a every member functioning Body of Christ without divisions.
Just some thoughts…
Margaret
Margaret,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think part of the problem that you mentioned is the fact that some are ‘trying’ to lead. Eldership is not an office contrary to popular opinion. Those who are elders do not need to be given a title in order to do their ‘job’ which is simply to set an example for the flock. The term ‘Elder’ is simply descriptive. When someone is an elder, people simply recognize what is true of them. It is not even subject for a vote. They simply are. Just because someone is recognized as an elder, or not, does not change what they do, or how they live out body life. When we take away the ‘position’ of elders, the true elders can be identified much more clearly. They have nothing to prove, like the rest of us, they can just be.
Thx for sharing.
Something interesting happened to me yesterday Jamal. Someone that is new to house church from institutional church who is a much older lady expressed to me that I don’t have a good understanding concerning authority.
I asked if she felt that I needed to see her as my authority and submit to her and she said yes. I nicely but frankly told her it was a submission was two way street around here and worked on life example, not just age.
We have seen many that come from the institutional church that have LOTS of “Biblical knowledge” but their personal life and families are in shambles. I beleive it’s because they put into practice what they see lived out at “church” in their homes and it destroys their lives. Up/down authority works great when our chilrden are young and they need structure. I know, I have 10 kids! HOWEVER, there comes a point in our children’s lives when they start asking “why” and we have to start telling them or they rebel. This is the understanding stage. This is NOT rebellion it’s a sign they are growing up!
Then after this they try to do things without your permission. Again, this is NOT rebellian!!! This means they are trying to enter the wisdom stage but your holding them back instead of running ahead of them and showing them HOW!!! Many parent have rebels because THEY aren’t doing THEIR job!!! If we keep our kid’s busy doing God’s will for THEIR lives they don’t have time to get into trouble. It’s our job to help them find God’s will!!!
In the institutional church to question authority this is forbiddin most of the time. As it is in authoritative homes. If we are involved in authoritative churches it WILL rub off in our home life. I believe this is one the the biggest reasons why many in institutional churches loses their children to the world. They are just doing “what their pastor is doing to them.”
Margaret
“Many parent have rebels because THEY aren’t doing THEIR job!!! If we keep our kid’s busy doing God’s will for THEIR lives they don’t have time to get into trouble.”
Margaret, as a parent of a 19 and 22 year old I feel that this is too black and white.
I don’t think parenting is like a slot machine – i.e. we put ‘good’ in, we ‘do things right’ and it always works out…it’s much more complex and can be affected by peers or schools etc…of course we could lock our kids up at home once they turn 13
Maybe I have misunderstood your phrasing though.
Jamal we were discussing this very topic lastnight at SOMA. One truth that has revealed itself to me is the heartbreak ministering to others in persuasion really is. We can not be the Holy Spirit for anyone. Heartbreaking when you see someone you love in the Church body refusing the Spirit. It’ an area my heart aches over. Great article! God is moving HIS Church to HIS authority and it’s marvelous to be part of and witness transformations in hs people’s hearts!
Brianna,
Sister, I think you have hit on something very important. I think this was one of the most heartbreaking aspects of Jesus’ ministry. The rejection He faced at the hands of the very people who claimed to serve God is really breathtaking. Nothing has changed. The more that we love people with the love of Jesus Christ, the more this rejection aches our hearts.
When our enemy refuses the life saving medicine that he needs, it is easier to be a bit indifferent to the fact. When our beloved brothers and sisters refuse our gifts to them that they desperately need, it is gut wrenching. It is in this rejection that we have a deeper fellowship with Christ as Philippians 3:10 so clearly says.
The million dollar question is this: Do we crave fellowship with Christ enough that we will not shrink back when the suffering comes? Do we have this mind to suffer even now?
Sometimes I read something and know that I need to share it with others. This doesn’t tell me anything I don’t already know, but it presents it more eloquently and persuasively than I could ever hope to do.
So thanks, Jamal. Your piece is based on some great observation from life. I love it – just love it!
Grace, peace and blessings in Jesus,
Chris
Thanks for the encouragement Chris…Blessings to you.
While the whole pastor-laity dichotomy is old news for me (I was a pastor), the child-rearing parts of your article hit home. We have 2 toddlers (we started our family late..) and we definitely run a tight ship at the AntWrites household.
Like every parent, I would walk in front of bullet for my kids. My daughter’s discipline is tantamount to her saddening us. She never wants to make us upset or disappointed, so seeing one of us like that is all the discipline her 3-yr old self needs now. My son on the other hand……;)
Thanks for the article.
I notice our adult friends around us are very lackadaisical with their discipline, if they have any at all. We love them to death, but we do not want our kids around their kids at all. We’ve tried, and our daughter will come back acting like them (rebellious, tantrums, etc). Their kids will hit and curse at their parents. I’m trying not to judge their parenting style, and once my wife said something, and was not taken too well. So now we just keep out, However, everyone sees how well behaved our children are so they tell us “just wait till they be come teenagers”. I know it’s not true, because we have friends out of state who don’t have teenagers like that, but at times I lose sleep over the fact that I’m doing everything right. I had this issue when I was a pastor too. Constantly beating myself up because someone was still sinning or cursing like a truck driver. “Maybe I wasn’t emphatic enough…or maybe I didn’t impress on their minds what Christ said”….a vicious circle. How did you handle the teenage years? Did you see that your teaching and discipline worked? How hard was the balance between hierarchal leadership and suggestive leadership when she was 16 and a guy was interested in her? Did you polish you shotgun when he came over?
Anthony,
Bro, thanks for your comments. Great questions. There are two things that I think every Christian parent should and needs to keep in the front of their minds:
1. We should NOT parent for the purpose of being a ‘good’ parents.
Do not let other well meaning Christians project condemnation on you. If this occurs, we will begin parenting out of concern for ourselves and the opinions of others. This is unloving and does not allow us to parent from a state of peace and true concern for our children. Religious people will always look for a reason to pass judgement. Just accept it. Try to avoid those kinds of people as much as possible as well:)
2. Do not believe the satanic lie that everything your child does is a reflection on your identity as a parent. This is another lie that religious people unintentionally project on others. This lie will cause you to resent your child. You can be the best parent in the world, and your children will still make mistakes. Remember, they need to be rescued just like we were. They were born on the wrong side of the battle. The Lord will have to rescue them. Having ‘control’ does not necessarily mean that healthy parenting is occurring. I worked in a prison as a corrections officer for a number of years when I got out of High School. We had control for the most part, but I would not say it was a ‘healthy’ environment in the least:)
Remember, if our children’s actions are always a reflection on our identity as a parent, then God must be a horrible Father. The entire human race rebelled against Him. Obviously He is the best Father, not the worst.
When I realized these things, parenting became less complicated. During my daughter’s teenage years, it was very difficult to know when to allow persuasion to come into things, and when hierarchy came into the picture. I defaulted to hierarchy more than I probably should have in some situations. As a result, I did not really try to ‘persuade’ her like I should have. Persuasion prepares them for the future, hierarchy takes care of immediate situations.
Unfortunately, my daughter is a very beautiful girl. Guys have been an issue for a while now. I am overly protective:) I always made them hang out with us as much as possible. This weeded out a lot of the riffraff in the process:)
When you think about this does this mean many in “organic Church” could go another extreme? I don’t want to do that but be balanced… Where is THIS balance? Is it just about fulfillment? I really don’t think so… New birth hasn’t ceased so how can knowledge cease? Then understanding…. and so on??
Whoops, my daughter was logged on! That was Margaret!
Excellent post and so much truth in this!!:)
Jamal,
Today John Piper tweeted the following quote from Mark Dever: “Pastors: “We are more fundamentally sheep than we are shepherds.” (Dever).”
That sounds like some better theology:) Go Mark Dever…there will be practical implications to church life and function when that truth is really taken to heart by the church.
Jamal,
The Law of God has many purposes. It is given by God to stop the mouth and bring the whole world guilty before God (Rom. 3:19), to bring the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20, 7:7), to bring death (Rom. 7:9-11), to make sin exceedingly sinful (Rom. 7:13), and to be a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:24). Your analogy of the law is incomplete, because it leaves out the vital role that the law plays in helping us understand our sinful condition, and thus our need for a savior. Everything in the Old Testament was pointing toward the coming of the Messiah, the perfect lamb who would be slain to pay for our sins. Where is the gospel in all of your teachings? Have you no concern for lost souls?
I see that you are once again pulling Matt. 23:8-12 out of context and using it as a way of defaming all pastors who do not fit your particular model of what a church congregation should be. You set up “hierarchical” as a label that means the pastor is acting as a ruler of his congregation, and then you dismiss all “institutional” church bodies as being “hierarchical”, with no recognition of the many faithful pastors who consistently preach the word of God to their flocks. Are you going to tell your readers about how Jesus told his followers to faithfully attend to all that the Pharisees told them to do (Matt. 23:1-3)? Are you going to tell them that almost the entire chapter is devoted to a condemnation of the Pharisees for their hypocritical deeds? Surely this is relevant to any discussion of Matt. 23:8-12, is it not? Would it not be a better application of that passage to tell your readers “When your pastor preaches faithfully from the word of God, make sure you observe all that he tells you to do; but if his life is not consistent with his preaching, then do not imitate his behavior”? Is that not the principle that we get from that chapter? You know that we have had this conversation already. Rather than accept the sincere correction from a brother, you insist on repeating the same error on your blog, acting as if you have never been corrected on the point. I must conclude that you are deliberately trying to deceive people, just so that you can bring them around to your particular viewpoint.
I like how you pointed out that ruling a congregation like a dictator is something that you see in cult leaders. Your next sentence should have been something like “That is one of the ways you can distinguish a cult from a true Christian church”. Instead, you give the impression that all “institutional” churches (i.e. those that do not fit your model) are akin to cults.
Finally, a pastor does not need to know all of the people in his flock in order to be a faithful pastor. He needs to know Jesus, and he needs to faithfully preach the word of God to his congregation. If he does this, the flock will hear Jesus in his preaching, and they will know Him because “my sheep hear my voice” (Matt. 10:27). A Christian pastor is merely an “under-shepherd” of the Lord (1 Pet. 5:1-4). The “Chief Shepherd” is Christ, and he is the one who ultimately feeds the flock. Faithful preaching from God’s word will accomplish this, in a large setting or a small one. The issue is the preaching, not the setting or the structure. As for the issue of “persuasive” leadership, the only people who will be persuaded by faithful Christian teachings are Christians. Thus, the main issue there is salvation, not the form or structure of the gathering. His sheep hear His voice. The ones that don’t hear are not sheep, but goats.
To summarize:
1. The purpose of the law was ultimately to bring us to Christ. Those who are in Christ are no longer under the law, but those not in Christ are still under it and are condemned already (John 3:18).
2. Jesus was not laying out a framework for church structure in Matt. 23:8-12. He was telling his followers not to be like the hypocritical Pharisees. The Pharisees sought after lofty titles to make themselves look important. Jesus spoke on this subject many times and it was always in the sense of a person’s attitude (as in Mark 1o:35-45), not the structure of the church congregation.
3. The pastor is a true under-shepherd of Christ when he faithfully preaches God’s word, thus bringing the congregation closer to the Chief Shepherd. People get saved by the preaching of the gospel (Rom. 1:16-17, 1 Cor. 1:21), not church structures or the lack thereof!
Joe,
Hey bro, thanks for your comments. Obviously I have heard the same arguments you just shared before, and as a pastor, I used them against people who were saying things like I have said in this article. I have a question for you…What do you think of Seth’s comment above? It is the first comment that is on this thread. Take a look at it closely. Let me know your thoughts.
Thx:)
Jamal,
I read Seth’s comment. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and if he prefers a home church then more power to him. Are you implying that because he has the same preference that you have that this somehow makes it a rule? It’s an interesting choice you give me: I can listen to you guys or I can listen to God. You know, I think I’ll stick with God. I can look in his word and see that he desires that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9) and that Jesus came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10). I think I will concern myself with those things, and not waste my time trying to dictate to people how they should structure their church congregations.
Thanks,
Joe
Your sharing has made me wiser in Him. Thanks.
Am sharing it with my married son. He has a 4-year old daughter.
May God continue to bless you with His wisdom so that your sheep (I mean, we who are your Facebook friends) may benefit from your wisdom-filled write-ups. I am 65+ and in my twilight years of life. I have much to learn from younger people like you who are full of His Spirit.
God bless.
It’s an honor to pass on what I have received brother. So glad that the article is an encouragement to you:)
@ Joe Beale, I am not sure why you are trying to tell Jamal what to teach and assume that just because he is called to bring revelation of how true authority should look like biblically, that he never saves souls. And it amuses me that you can stand so tall and say that you are correcting him, when u don’t even understand what he is speaking about. If u did, you would not correct
him. He is highlighting verses that are not commonly taught and because they are not coonly taught we have unhealthy leadership styles in the church.
Hello Alicia,
Here’s what you wrote:
—
“I am not sure why you are trying to tell Jamal what to teach and assume that just because he is called to bring revelation of how true authority should look like biblically, that he never saves souls.”
—
Jamal is not bringing any revelation; he is merely sharing his opinions. The only true authority is with God. If we want to know the truth, we need to look into the word of God. The scriptures are useful for correcting and rebuking (2 Tim 3:16) and that is what I was doing: correcting and rebuking him using the word of God. If I am at fault, please show me from God’s word where I have erred.
And as far as saving souls is concerned, it is impossible to do this without sharing the gospel. In my comments, I did exactly that. However, I don’t see any gospel proclamations in any of Jamal’s lengthy notes, and I’ve read lots of them. If he’s not sharing the gospel, then he is not involved in saving souls. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16-17).
—
“And it amuses me that you can stand so tall and say that you are correcting him, when u don’t even understand what he is speaking about. If u did, you would not correct
him.”
—
I understand him perfectly well. I understand that he wants to promote Frank Viola’s home church movement, and that he really cannot get any support for that from God’s word. So he takes a passage out of its context and uses it as a proof-text, a process that even Viola has condemned in his book “Pagan Christianity”. Speaking of the book, Jamal sent me a copy and I am reading through it. Each time I finish a chapter, I review it on my facebook page. There is nothing about Jamal’s views that I don’t understand, because I study these things very closely. You should do the same.
Now, you have said that if I understood him then I would not correct him. Really? Is he above correction? Is he some sort of super-apostle who cannot be corrected even by the word of God? Surely you must see the irony in this. Jamal makes a point of saying that we are all brothers and there is no hierarchy, but then when he is confronted you step in and say that I shouldn’t be correcting him. Your comments are in fact loaded with assumptions about some people being above others.
You might be thinking to yourself “Who is this guy to think he can correct Jamal? How arrogant!” In fact, I am doing this because he is a brother and I care about him. You might think we are enemies, but in fact we are friends; if you look on his facebook page you’ll see me listed among his friends. I remember when Jamal first came to the Lord back in the mid-90′s and I rejoiced over it. I’ve heard him speak in person several times and I’ve read many of his notes and commented on several of them.
But just because we’re friends does not mean that I give him a pass when it comes to faithfully representing the scriptures. God is defamed when people take His words out of context and use them to further a man-centered agenda. I stated that I think Jamal is being deliberately deceptive when it comes to his representation of Matt. 23:8-12, and I stand by that statement. I believe that anyone who honestly examines the whole chapter will see exactly what I am seeing. It may hurt him to hear what I’m saying, but a true brother would not let another go astray.
Again, if I’m in error, please show me from the scriptures where I’m going wrong. I don’t know you, but I trust that you will be honest in doing this if you truly are a sister in Christ. As in all other things, the word of God trumps the opinions of men (or women).
Yours very truly,
Joe
Joe,
Thx for your comments, even though we don’t agree. I noticed that you didn’t mention anything about Hebrews 13:17. That was a major point in the article. What are your thoughts? Does it indicate hierarchy or persuasion?
The church is not operating in the fullness that she is called to. She is not walking in the glory that Jesus said she would walk in. These subjects Jamal brings forth are important ones for us to learn so that we can all walk in the glory and authority that Jesus gave to each one of us. If the church looks like a business, then we can safely say that it does not look like Jesus said it should. I don’t see a church in America that looks anything like the Acts church, do you? If not, then we need to question the foundations that we have built on so that we can become all that He has destined for us to be.
Well said Alicia:)
Seth, thank you for sharing…great points, and your experience encourages me to keep seeking the fullness of Christ and not settling. Amen, it’s His life and work, etc., not ours!!!
Amen Jan!
JIMMY—Boy, your post hit home…I have trust issues in this area as well…and yeah, relating to my adult children has made me take a few steps backwards but for the most part, I am pleased with their lives and how they chose to live them….The Lord has used Jamal as a vessel to enlighten so many or at least re-examine where they are in relation to their ‘Walk” in the Lord and what it means to be “Called out” and separate….Jimmy, I thank you for your post..I not only read it but felt it as well..afterall working the ‘clay’ is equal pressure on all sides but I think the worst part for me was getting dizzy on that Potter Wheel….(took a while to walk a straight line after it stopped)…Shalom.
I love you Shay!
I am humbled…the more I unlearn and He helps me relearn through the Holy Spirit..I am seeing not only the Body of Christ differently but those soon-to-be- members as well. As they are, I not only once was but am in a continual process of renewal…Love you in Christ as well, Jamal…you have an amazing yet sometimes difficult ministry. I admire your strength and fortitude knowing it is born out of love–not just for the lost, but especially the believer!
@Shay: LOVE the expression “getting dizzy on that Potter Wheel….(took a while to walk a straight line after it stopped)”…can I use it?
I’ll give you credit.
I admires ant…would watch them for hours on end….oh and whatever I say comes because the Holy Spirit gives the words–they’re not mine…and if it helps another or edifies the true nature of what the Lord thru the Holy Spirit is doing with his ‘called out’ ones–have at it…just keep in mind that it is ‘hands and feet’ that run the wheel…mostly we see the Potters Hands but forget feet are involved as well…as in servitude—for the final vessel is fired and hardened whether it holds gold or a potted plant or even a…well…you get the ‘pitcher’…Shalom Ant..I’ve greatly esteemed you…(never saw a blue one before, though. The color looks good on you..:)
What a delight article to know how to parent our children in a way they should grow.
1. This was inspiration for parenting (I have a 2 and 3 year old) – thanks for that.
2. The third to last paragraph is powerful
3. In Oregon, I fellowshipped with brethren who exemplified much of this. It was conventional in that the meeting had a name (Bend Bible Fellowship) and a building, but the meetings took place with an “open pulpit”. Week after week we were astonished at the leading of the Holy Spirit and the harmony of what was shared as 2 or 3 men would get up to share messages (we would wait and sing hymns until someone felt lead to stand up and be the next one to preach). The congregation had some very mature Bible teachers including a major author, Dave Hunt. There were three designated elders who were all respected older men. One day, in a one-on-one meeting with one of those elders at his house, he said to me that he believed I was a pastor because of the ministry that I was constantly involved in of gathering saints together for outreach and prayer meetings etc. I share this with you because it furthers your point. The elder was able to recognize or acknowledge this gift for me in a way that a typical “pastor” (or “senior pastor” etc.) would not or could not. He wasn’t saying that I needed to go to seminary or go start my own church. He believed his gift was that of a pastor as well and he was simply acknowledging and encouraging me in the blessing of that gifting. How many pastors out there are willing to admit that there are multiple pastors sitting in their congregations?
Daniel,
Thx for reading and commenting. What you have brought up is interesting. The less the ‘system’ is present, the more we will not be distracted. This will allow us to see Christ. Seeing Christ includes seeing the fellow members of His body and appreciating and valuing each part. Blessings to you!
Mmmm, fascinating, and yes in the N.T. epistles we read accounts of multiple people being allowed to speak in turn. I have wondered why so many today seem oblivious to–or defiant of–the tremendous benefit of having messages said in multiple ways by multiple people. If I could wager a guess, I would guess that very few pastors/priests today have teaching experience before they enter the pulpit. As a result, there is much attitude akin to Joe’s above that preaching AT people is equal to teaching them, which it is certainly not. It completely omits the feedback loop which is critical. Copious research on human learning shows us that there are multiple learning styles, all of which cannot be addresssed by a singular approach, and if all people do is sit and listen, on their best day they’ll retain only 20% of what was said. Woe the day congregants are given pop quizzes and the pastorship is given “course” evaluations, because the majority of them would not secure tenure! Churches become political in large part because leadership effectivity is not tested in any objective way, but only via subjective popular opinion. If they can manage to stay popular, they keep their spots.
As a dedicated teacher, I have always encouraged my students to go learn from as many different people and opportunities as possible, using critical thinking and discernment throughout, because one day another teacher might phrase something in just such a way as to give them an “A-ha!” moment to propel them past a sticking point. I don’t see this as threatening to my position, because my goal is to see them reach their potential NOT stick around and serve me forever. I also tell them they can learn as much about what not to do as what to do, so it’s never a waste.
Thus I think the Body would be better served by making a point of rotating multiple preachers and teachers through, all of whom having that gift of course, but nevertheless recognizing that if there are a dozen or so gifts, then more than 0.00005% of the population ought to be speaking.
Jamal, I really enjoyed reading this brother! Also, enjoyed Seth’s comment! Thank you for blogging.
Thanks nick!
Enjoyed the article…just wondering what translation you were using for the Matthew 23:8, 10 scriptures?
Thx for reading and commenting Harry. I used the NASB.
Just as we desire our children to grow up we will desire those in the Body of Christ to grow up. Heaven help up to have a house full of ten children and especially not encourage the older one to help me with the homeschoolimg/ 24/7 disciplining responsibilities of the younger children! It SHOULD be the same way in the Church environment. However most churches are like daycares. Full of spiritual babies that are kept in infancy. We have a tendency to repeat what we know about family life on a greater scale. Maybe I shouldn’t have said that? But it’s true!
What often happens is many come out of these “nurseries” with big heads knowing many facts but have no understanding or wisdom how to apply it to real life. It doesn’t set them up for good beginnings in a godly life. Jesus discipled 24/7 not 3 hours left over at the worst time of our day when we are tired…
Deuteronomy 6:2
2 That thou mightest fear the Lord thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son,(Get it! It’s GENERATIONAL when we do it THIS way!!! Jesus knew this!! In the home AND Church!!! On 11% of Sunday School kids stay with the church in adulthood!!! Do your research on Barna!) all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged…..Deuteronomy 6:7
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
This is 24/7 discipleship! Jesus was raised this way and “raised” his disciples the same way.;-)
Thx again for commenting Margaret!
Good word and analogy with your soon to be 18 yr. old, one or our children will turn 18 this yr. also. There is much ground work and a great amount of humility going on in our “mega” church that relates very closely to the words you use here, oraganic versus institutional, relationships being established between members etc etc. There is an understanding going on in the hearts and minds of those who are “searching the scriptures daily to see if these things be true” that are coming from the pulpit. Folks are looking beyond the titles and seeing the heart thanks to the working of the Holy Spirit. David
Jamal,
To answer your question, the verse by itself does not definitively answer the question. It can support either view, depending on how you define the word “hierarchy”. Your version of “hierarchy” is that of a dictator, akin to a cult leader. By that definition, only the cults have a hierarchy. However, if a hierarchy is only a system of ranking whereby one person is recognized as a leader among his peers, then the verse supports it nicely.
It’s Good Friday and this weekend I’m going to want to spend time with my family, and so I’m checking out of this discussion. Happy Easter to all of you
Regards,
Joe
A hierarchy CANNOT be defined as a person leading his peers, because the moment he is put into leadership they are no longer his peers. Peers means equals, same.
Here’s the actual definitions of hierarchy, including specification that in the church, each rank is subordinate to another:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hierarchy
Agreed. When I was a developer in the IT field, I was “one of the guys”, but the minute I got promoted to the boss. “Director of Operations”, that’s the moment I no longer was one of them. I wasn’t even in charge of the folks I used to work with, it was a lateral promotion, but we never even had lunch together anymore,. Both them and me saw things differently. The saying “It’s lonely at the top”, goes for clergy as well. When I was a pastor, I used to be embarrassed by the undeserved respect I got. Rarely did the pastors have friend outside the pastoral staff, and in my case, we never spoke to each other outside of “work”. If I was getting hookers and shooting up every Friday , nobody would know. The fellowships that Christ and the other apostles spoke about was the exact opposite of what the “church” of today is.
hey jamal!! i know a lot of hard work went into this one and i want to thank you for your continued effort to get to the core issue. the only hierarchy that i have found acceptable to Christ in scripture is loving others above yourself…if we aren’t doing that, what are we doing?? can’t wait to share with you all the stuff i’ve been compiling on this!! :]
Julie,
Thx for reading and commenting on the blog. I love what you said about loving others above yourself. That’s beautiful hierarchy for sure.
Also, I can’t wait to hear all that the Lord has been showing you…I feel like a kid on Christmas eve:)
Blessings on you sis:)
I like the parent-child analogy.With that in mind, something that came to mind here, just from my own observations and experience, in that there can be a major dependence of the laity on the clergy, and clergy can become to their congregations like parents whose children depend upon and look to them for all their sustenance (in this case, spiritual sustenance). I think there is a real state of dependence upon a human leader who is biblically educated and who is perceived as one who can properly dispense scriptural teaching. It seems analogous to young adults who rely upon their parents for provision, and can’t really go out into the “real world” without them. I really believe that within the system, this is a subconscious mentality that prevents an every member functioning body. If a congregation loses it’s pastor, it is a major problem. I’ve experienced this firsthand with our “church”. It really saddens me-deeply-when the headship of Christ is given the “theological head nod”, and so much emphasis and energy is placed into who’s on the boards. That touches a raw nerve. It just saddens me to hear those who say they are “lost” without a pastor, rely upon this individual for their spiritual nourishment, and then have someone to blame when the service doesn’t follow tradition or isn’t up to their standards. I do think pastors (by and large) are well-intentioned, God-loving individuals who I do truly respect- as with elders- but that respect isn’t (and shouldn’t) be derived from the fact that those individuals were elected by majority vote into that position. Sharing my heart- just sayin’
Andy,
Bro, thx for the comments. There is so much truth in what you shared. You are an honest and brave man for recognizing this. Honestly, everyone who has any history and knowledge of the institutional church system knows deep down that what you have just said is true if they take the time to think about it. It is very evident, yet there are only a few that have the courage to think about these realities, and still fewer yet that will openly talk about these things. I’m thankful for you and the courage He has given you bro!
A careful look at the terms “clergy” and “laity” reveals a lot. We are a royal and holy priesthood. There are no laity in the church. We have all been given a vocation to walk worthy of.
Wow! Just wow! Jamal, you cease to interest me and make me think with the words that God has revealed to you for the building up of His Bride.
The part about: “If you study the cults, they usually have leaders that demand obedience based on position or rank, certainly not persuasion. Honestly, this sounds a lot like how the world’s religious system operates as well.”
God has also been showing me things like this about all religious systems. I look forward to our next talk. I have meant to call you, but unfortunately there hasn’t been a suitable time for it yet like last time. Again thank you for writing and sharing the insights that Jesus has been showing you!
Anthony,
Bro, it’s an honor to share and dialogue with brothers and sisters in Christ. I look forward to the next time we can talk.
Blessings bro!
Outstanding again, J, thank you! I’ve already written a quote in my bible, which just happened to have plenty of note space at the end of Hebrews. I think I have always intuitively felt this way about leadership of adults, and have resisted the authoritative approach. It’s comforting to hear support–I’m NOT stubborn, thank you! And it was such a timely post for me to read, as well, because today I bought supplies to teach bible study to my parents. I am nervous they won’t go with me on this. They’re not inclined to read, in general, and they have spent their lives in a tradition that makes them think they don’t need to crack a bible for themselves. I’m given no permission to have knowledge, experience, or authority above them on anything around here, anyway, so I just have no idea how this is going to go. Yet, as the Hebrews quote says, I feel responsible because I do know better. So, with appeal to the Holy Spirit’s strength in conviction, I’m going to attempt being persuasive tomorrow. Please pray for me.
God bless you greatly for your boldness in His unwavering Truth!
Thx again for reading sister. I have prayed that you would be given grace to share what the Lord has shown you about Christ to your parents. It will be the Spirit that is persuasive. I know He will lead you. I’d love to hear how it goes:)
I think what you said in this artical is true…. for believers. However, lets say our daughter isn’t a believer and not in the Kingdom. Now what? What about hierarchal structure then? How did Jesus respond in these situations? How did he respond to the religious leaders? How did he respond to the rich man who went away sorrowful after he told him that he needed to give away everything? He didn’t run after him or make things easier…
For example, let’s use our older children as an example again. A teen that has no internal controls NEED external ones. They need the Law (Ten Commandments) in order that they may recognize sin. This is the purpose of the Law even today. The earlier they get this in life the earlier they will figure it out that God is Holy and He is serious! If not, God will usually use other authorities outside our homes to teach them this. We start very early to break our children’s wills (not spirits) and bend them toward the Lord. There is a TIME for authority in the beginning with children. I wonder how far God carries this with His children? Is it about balance? Just thinking???
I agree Margaret, but remember, Christ did not teach libertinism. He enhanced or changed the moral law, he didn’t get rid of it.. I’m publishing a book within the year called the commandments of Christ, a besides, much of the Ten Commandments no longer stands, such as the sabbath. because Christ is our sabbath, for example.
Jesus spoke and taught “as one having authority” (Matt. 7:29).
@Margaret: much of the gospel is poorly taught nowadays. Paul, I believe, may have preached the entire book of John or Mark to people. Never 1 or 2 verses a week like they do now. The “Jesus Film” is a perfect example of how the gospel was portrayed back then. The gospel is about a person. If you didn’t fall in love with the person of Christ, then your salvation may be suspect. I was given the “5 steps” to salvation, and I was led down the “Roman Road”, but over time I fell in love with my savior. I asked Jesus to come into my life in full sincerity, so even though I knew very little, God honored my request, and showed me more of him.
Jamal,
I thought since you tagged me on this blog posting I would read it. Having read it and the assortment of comments that were posted, I felt I’d chime in and drop my 2-cents worth. You do know that I am a pastor in an institutional church!
First, I think I want to concur with Joe Beale in that the Law of God has many purposes, including all the things he mentioned (knowledge of sin, death, etc.). I think what you did was make an observation with regard the Law was a 10,000 foot view from your vantage point, but certainly wasn’t comprehensive—I don’t think that was your intent, otherwise you would have to write many volumes. As such, providing a complete illustration of the Law (via analogy) neither can be summed up in something as simple as “helping us understand our sinful condition”. I think I can confidently say the Law is/was a combination of what you wrote, as well as what Joe wrote, plus more.
I’ve known you now for about 13 years and have observed your journey with Christ. When Joe raised the question “Where is the gospel in all of your teach? Have you no concern for lost souls?” it caused me to ponder what he said. I thought of a couple of dynamics I’ve observed in your life. I recalled when you were pastoring at New Life OSU and remembered you sharing the gospel both during church services, as well as sharing with individuals. I recall that because I was present during some of those times. And, I know that people came to Christ under you preaching.
I believe God has you in a different season of ministry now; let’s not forget what Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:11 “And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers.” My experience as a pastor in an institutional church has shown me that God provides those various servants, and one man is not usually all of them. In fact, the church is very misguided when it believes that one man is all the above and expects him to serve in that way. Not only that, but quite often we hear the Church speak of its evangelists, shepherds and teachers, but seldom hear it speak of its apostles and prophets—as though they don’t exist today. I believe you have moved from a shepherding role in the Church to an apostolic role in the Church.
Regarding Joe’s comments about “where’s the gospel”; when I read some of Paul’s letters he makes frequent references to “the gospel” but he doesn’t provide a full layout of the gospel (in the sense that we would present Romans Road or The Four Spiritual Laws). I believe Paul does this because he’s writing to believers—people who have already heard the gospel and entrusted their lives to Christ. I don’t think we would question Paul’s concern for lost souls, but rather understand he is attempting to get the Church to be grounded in what the gospel is, avoid heresy and live obedient lives. I see you doing something similar. I’m going to go out on limb here and assume that the vast majority of the readers of your blog are already believers. As such, I think much of what you write is a call to biblical obedience, rather than an adherence to the traditions of men.
Let me just say here too, that anybody who reads your blog SHOULD absolutely test everything you are saying to see if it measures up to biblical truth! If I read something that contradicts Scripture I have a responsibility to confront you on it.
There seemed to be a point of contention between what you are asserting in Matthew 23:8-12 and what Joe is asserting. I think it’s quite clear that Jesus is addressing the hypocritical behavior of the Pharisees in this passage. I don’t think you were pulling the passage out of context, but rather you were addressing what the context was, regarding what Jesus was saying. I believe Jesus was illustrating for the people that a shift in the kingdom was happening; rather than following the leadership of the Pharisees he was calling them to follow HIS leadership. The Cross certainly leveled out what would become leadership in the Church after Jesus’ ascension—there would be One Leader, One Head of the Church.
Unfortunately, there’s still a great deal of what the Pharisees were in the Church today; we need look no further than titles like Senior Pastor or Executive Pastor—none of which are mentioned nor described in Scripture, and they all diminish who the Head of the Church is.
I’m glad Joe mentioned a possible application for the Matthew 23 passage in our modern context as it relates to pastors, because it speaks to the charge he made of you taking things out of context. All Scripture had an original audience and intent—context is everything. However, many applications can come out of one context; in fact there are pastors in thousands of churches across America who every Sunday provide a different application than what the original context was, in order that it fit into the modern Church’s context.
A classic example of this would be the passage of Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.” Many pastors will preach this, and many Christians will use this as part of sharing the gospel, yet this was never written to the Church, it was written to Israel and it was a promise for their future. Sadly, I’ve heard this passage used in an attempt to lead people to the Lord, and when it is used it presents a false gospel, leading people to believe that life with Jesus is only good all the time and that he would never intentionally allow anything bad to come into your life. The damning thing is; those people who made a commitment to Jesus based upon this passage are acutely disappointed when the first trial comes along and often abandon the faith.
I do not think it is wrong to utilize a passage of Scripture to make a current application, as long as we are true to what the original text was saying; I believe you’re true to the context.
I’m probably going to deviate greatly with Joe on his points regarding pastors and preaching. When Joe states, “a pastor does not need to know all of the people in his flock in order to be a faithful pastor” I cringe; I simply cannot envision Jesus saying that about his flock of 12 men. Proverbs 27:23 seems to say something different: “Know well the condition of your flocks, and give attention to your herds” and Paul in Acts 20:28 “Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.”
Somehow in the Church we’ve made the Preacher and the preaching the end-all-be-all. Joe was right that Jesus (through the Holy Spirit) is the ultimate teacher/feeder of the flock; I believe that’s exactly what you’re advocating for. Let’s not forget that Jesus preached to 5000, but we’re not told that any of them believed; in fact, we get just the opposite picture—the day after feeding the 5000 Jesus castigated the same people for not wanting him, but wanting the food again. I believe Jesus was the greatest preacher ever, but that didn’t guarantee those who heard believed.
Joe’s point was that preaching to the sheep will ensure that “my sheep hear my voice” (btw John 10:27 not Matthew 10:27) and I understand that the 5000 were not sheep, however every Sunday there are millions of people who sit under faithful preaching, and who consider themselves sheep, but experience no life-change. Life-change occurs in life-on-life relationships (discipleship) as Jesus demonstrated through how he lived with his disciples. Far too often faithful preaching (and what good evangelical pastor would deny that he’s/she’s not providing faithful preaching) actually promotes spiritual retardation in which congregations become nothing more than consumers. I say this while being a pastor in the institutional church.
I think this link makes the point (thanks to Marla Beale).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxrbSbRfDek&feature=share
I find it particularly interesting that whenever I hear a conversation regarding the consumerism in the institutional church they are quick to point out the small faithful minority but have no interest in discussing the unfaithful majority who have been spiritual infants for 10, 15 or 20 years or longer. It’s the elephant in the room to be ignored.
I find it utterly shameful that the Church is content to have about 10% of her congregations (and I’m not making a blanket statement here, there obviously are exceptions) pursing Christ, while the other 90% remain infantile churchgoers—and this is only attributed to structures. They are structures in which pastors refuse to follow the most basic mandates of Jesus to “make disciples, teaching them to obey all I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)Far too many pastors are so focused on building (numerically) the church that they don’t have time to make disciples. Every Sunday in our country scores of people come to the alter for salvation, never to be discipled. That’s institutional structure.
I would suggest that our current church structures are unfaithful to the mandate of Matthew 28-19-20. Discipleship teaches us how to become the beautiful bride we are intended to be. Jesus deserves more than churchgoers.
When Joe wraps up with “As for the issue of “persuasive” leadership, the only people who will be persuaded by faithful Christian teachings are Christians.” I think he made your point for you.
This is what you get for 2 cents.
Ken, I really appreciate your comment. It is thoughtful and level headed. When ever I hear people react or when people make strong comments that seemingly miss the point I am reminded of the scripture that says “Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry for the anger of man does not express the righteousness of God”
It is so important to listen to those we disagree with on the surface because we may find out that there is a true heart behind it and that will help us to hear the spirit of what is being said.
May the Lord Jesus Himself be the all in all and that which supports believers and exhorts believers to know Him and experience Him and enthrone Him in our lives and communities be encouraged.
I don’t see Jamal or Frank Viola or George Barna trying to tear down the Church of Jesus but instead putting the attention on the elephant in the room and honestly pointing out the things we have held to for so long that it has been woven into the garment of Jesus Himself yet detract us from the person of Christ. He is our life and the Church is one with Him. If we as a whole have stopped holding fast the head then we need to honestly face that and deal with that.
I pray that more and more that the eyes of our hearts are enlightened to see the hope of our calling (Christ the hope of glory) and the riches that are in Him, within whom we are.
I really like your comment. Especially the part about…”All Scripture had an original audience and intent—context is everything.” I have really been focusing on this while studying the scriptures lately. You see distict gatherings… with a purpose.
Hello Ken,
It’s good to hear from you again. Sorry for the delayed response, but I had company over last night and I also had to pay some bills later on. I didn’t mean to leave you hanging.
Here is my response to your various points. I’ll try to keep it brief, because this thread is long enough already. I’m going to start with your last point, because that’s really the heart of the issue.
1. Regarding the 10% who are following Jesus and the 90% who are “infantile churchgoers”, I’m not sure if your numbers are correct, but I’m going to go with them anyway because it’s probably close to that even if that’s not exact. I agree with you that these pastors need to be making disciples instead of trying to build numbers. But let’s put first things first: no one can become a disciple until he is saved. Once God has regenerated him, then the process of sanctification begins, and God steadily conforms him to the image of Christ (Rom. 8:29). What the Lord begins, he will complete (Philippians 1:6), being that He is the author and perfecter of our faith (Heb. 12:2). That is why the preaching of the gospel is such a desperate need. Why are those 90% not following after Christ? Most likely it’s because they are not saved. The church today is filled with false converts; it is filled with goats who think they are sheep. This happens because too many pastors and Christian “leaders” assume that their listeners (and readers) all know the gospel and that they are all saved. This is a tragic mistake. So now we have Frank Viola and Jamal Jivanjee and others diverting all of their attention to secondary issues and ignoring the biggest problem that the church has, which is the lack of gospel preaching and the presence of so many false converts in church congregations. They don’t act like Christians because they’re not Christians. The only way to solve that problem is to preach the gospel faithfully and pray that the Lord will turn their hearts away from sin and grant them repentance unto life. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16-17). And this leads me to my next point.
2. You say that Jamal has moved on to an “apostolic” role, which apparently means that his responsibility to preach the gospel and help people get saved goes away because he’s no longer a pastor? Among other justifications you say that you’re “going out on a limb” to say that most of his readers are believers and thus they don’t need to hear the gospel. My friend, I wouldn’t go too far out on that limb, because hanging by a slender thread. When you’re broadcasting your thoughts on the internet, you never know who’s reading your stuff. For every person who comments, there are probably 20-30 who read the thread but do not comment. And since you know that 90% of churchgoers are “infantile” (actually, they’re goats who think they are sheep), you should not be so confident that they know the gospel. There’s a yahoo-group e-mail list that I’ve been a member of for over 10 years and everyone on there claims to be a Christian. Just last week, a woman who has been on that list longer than me posted a question to the group that said in so many words “what is the real meaning of Jesus death? I don’t think it can really save us, can it?” As you can imagine, this inquiry generated some long and thoughtful responses, but the point is that you never know what a person really knows and it’s extremely dangerous to assume that they understand the gospel. I would say that if a person doesn’t understand why Jesus died, then they don’t really understand the gospel. We should not take this stuff for granted. And this leads me to my next point.
3. Regarding the video that Marla posted, that was Matt Chandler preaching about the need for pastors to preach the gospel and not moralism. I notice that you didn’t mention this, but he begins the clip by saying “You get men and women growing up in churches where the gospel is assumed and the nature and character of God is assumed…” Preaching moralism is where you tell people to do good things rather than preaching about the need to repent from sin and follow Jesus. So all of a sudden, being a Christian means that you don’t go to R-rated movies, you don’t drink or smoke, you do go to church on Sundays or whenever the doors are open, etc. But he didn’t have to stop there; he could have added the kinds of moralisms that Frank Viola (and by extension, Jamal) preaches: don’t build a church building, don’t have a paid pastor who preaches every week, don’t have a sermon at the same time every week, thou shalt meet in homes, thou shalt have an unstructured spontaneous worship time, etc. What’s the difference? It’s just another form of legalism. No, this video clip does not make your point; it makes mine. You say that the power of salvation is in relationships, but the word of God says that it is the gospel. I think I’ll go with God on this one. And that leads me to my next point.
4. You say that my comment about persuasive leadership (“…the only people who will be persuaded by faithful Christian teachings are Christians”) actually makes Jamal’s point. Really? Did I say something about not having church buildings or paid pastors? I notice you said that I “wrapped it up”, and yet you omitted the very next sentence in that paragraph. That’s unfortunate, because it was pretty important. Here’s what I REALLY said to “wrap it up”: “Thus, the main issue there is salvation, not the form or structure of the gathering. His sheep hear His voice. The ones that don’t hear are not sheep, but goats.” No, that does not make Jamal’s point. Jamal, like you and many others, is apparently blind to the problem of false converts in the church. The need is for these people to get saved. After that, discipleship is possible, and God will finish the job that He started.
5. Regarding Matthew 23: 8-12, I’ve gone through this so many times that it seems redundant to go through it again. You say that you think his application is faithful, and you repeat the same bad theology that he (and Viola) have repeated many times about how modern churches “diminish” the headship of Jesus. It’s hard for me to fathom this particular attitude, because the scripture is so clear on the point. Colossians 1:18 says “He is the head of the body, the church”. This is an unconditional statement. Jesus does not become the head of the body if we do church services the “right” way, and doing it the “wrong” way does not take him down from that position. Jesus IS the head of the church. Period. His position is maintained by the power of God, and there is nothing that any man can do to diminish it in any way. I notice that we don’t play this game with any of the other unconditional statements about who Jesus is. Can you imagine a pastor teaching about John 14:6 (“I am the way, and the truth, and the life”) and then saying “now be careful, because if you structure your church wrong, then Jesus is no longer The Way to salvation”. No, that would be ridiculous. And that is how I feel whenever I hear someone preaching this nonsense about Jesus not being the head of the church because some church congregation has a pastor who preaches every week. Jesus will always be the head of the church and there’s no way to change that.
If you continue to insist that Matthew 23:8-12 means that we can’t have men in the church that are called pastors, I suppose there is nothing I can do to change your mind. I know why Frank Viola takes that position: it’s because he needs to find a scripture to use as a proof-text to back up the conclusion he already came to before even looking at the verse. Since Viola is Jamal’s spiritual guru, I understand why he rubber stamps that position. But I have no idea why you agree with it, but I guess it’s just a matter of being more comfortable siding with Jamal than siding with me. Still, does that mean that you’re going to drop the title of pastor from yourself? Just curious.
6. I’m not going to spend a lot of time on the issue of whether a pastor needs to know everyone in his flock. If my statement makes you cringe, then I guess you’ll just have to cringe. But when you’re done cringing, think about the Old Testament figures who were “types” of the messiah, our Lord Jesus. I’m talking about Moses, Joshua, and David. These men were the “shepherds” of the people of Israel, and their “flocks” numbered in the thousands, perhaps millions. Did David know all of the people of Israel? I think not. Yet, he was called their shepherd (1 Chron. 11:2). Also, remember how Jesus said that the shepherd would leave the 99 in order to save the 1(Matt. 18:12-14)? Can a pastor really know 100 people as well as Jesus knew the 12? I would say that all of his followers were his “flock”, not just the 12. Food for thought.
Regards,
Joe
Joe,
I agree with with at least one thing you said. Christ is head of the church no matter what system we have. I agree, our man made system of church cannot change the truth that Christ is the head of the church. I have a question for you…
Since you believe that God created all humans to be of equal value and worth because they were made in the image of God, would you therefore say that slavery (a system that reflected the opposite truth of human equality and dignity) was not really a problem because it did not change the true
value of the person being enslaved? Is that not the logic you are using?
Jamal,
Slavery, if you’re talking about the American version, is wrong because it’s a violation of the 8th commandment “Thou shalt not steal”. If a man agrees to do some work for another man then he is an employee or a contractor. But if one man takes another man by force and compels him to do work that he has not agreed to do, then he is stealing that man’s productivity. Each man is entitled to the wages he has earned. If you do not pay a man the wages he has worked for, God is angry about it (James 5:4). If you force a man to work for you and then you take the fruit of his labor for yourself and he has not consented to it, you are stealing from him. That is why slavery is wrong, quite apart from the point you were trying to make. Whether all men are equal in the sight of God is a debatable question, especially in light of Matthew 11:11. You are correct to say that forcing a man into slavery does not change his position before God, but that has no bearing on whether slavery is right or wrong. The biblical version of slavery is not sinful in God’s eyes, obviously. However, the American version was one where the men who became slaves were forced into that condition. That is why it was wrong.
Regards,
Joe
Joe,
American slavery was justified in the courts because they were seen as property, not as human persons. Biblically speaking, human beings are made in the image of God, so when a Person or society base their laws from this view, you can see why slavery would be a problem for those who believe that the person who is being treated as property is actually just as valuable as the next person. Beliefs have consequences. A belief that does not affect your daily life is not a belief at all.
I’m sorry that this was a difficult analogy Joe. The Headship of Christ, and priesthood of all believers, are New Testament beliefs that have consequences. These were not yet realities in the Old
Testament, so your appeal to practices of selective headship and priesthood in the Old Testament as a basis for New Testament living are not valid at all. The New Testament Church displayed the headship of Christ and the priesthood of believers in their practice and function of church life. This stopped when the church became institutionalized.
As the beliefs of Christ’s headship and the priesthood of believers come back into view, this will necessarily clash with the current institutional system that clashes with these truths. This is occurring for the same reason that the belief that all men were created in God’s image caused people to examine the morality of viewing an entire race of humans as animals and property. There was a necessary clash between belief and reality on the ground.
I hope you can grasp what I am saying Joe.
Jamal,
I’ll address your points one at a time.
1. I agree that all persons are made in the image of God, but that does not make them automatically free men. You can see that there was slavery in the Bible, both of the “employment” kind where an Israelite would sell himself to pay his debts, and the kind where foreigners were impressed into servitude because they were defeated members of a nation that had opposed Israel. God ordained both of those. I would agree that viewing men as property is wrong, but having that view does not make that person a slave. Having an incorrect understanding of Biblical teachings is bad, but it’s also correctable. However, I would view the American version of slavery as evil for the reasons I gave you above. It’s a different sin than having an incorrect view of your fellow man.
2. I agree that the doctrine of Christ being the head of the church is a New Testament concept; I don’t remember arguing otherwise. My citation of those OT figures who were types of the messiah was in response to Ken’s notion that a pastor must know all of his sheep as well as Jesus knew the twelve. The idea of a person being the shepherd of God’s people is as much an OT concept as it is an NT concept. Christ is the “Good Shepherd”, and the “Chief Shepherd” and he is the head of the church. He holds all of those roles, but the last one is unique to the church age while the others span all ages.
3. You say that the “institutional” church practices “clash” with the notion of a priesthood of all believers, but this is just an opinion. In fact, your entire argument is a preference issue; it is not a moral issue. You prefer home church and spontaneous worship. More power to you. Someone else might prefer a church that meets in a building, with a pastor who preaches a sermon every week. More power to him. God does not prescribe one over the other. You really should stop arguing a preference issue as if it was a moral issue. Instead, you should focus on glorifying God by preaching the good news of Jesus Christ so that people can get saved. I know it seems like foolishness, but this is God’s chosen method of saving people (1 Cor. 1:21).
Regards,
Joe
Joe, just to clarify, slavery in Biblical times was the same as employment nowadays. You could not work for yourself if you weren’t free. You had to be employed by someone else. If you work for someone else, you are NOT free to do what you like. I work for myself, so I can get up at noon. If I tried that at a regular job, I wouldn’t be there too long. Plus, the minute the US became a nation , ALL 13 colonies (if not all 13, at least 11) made slavery illegal. Read the Declaration, you’ll see that slavery was one of the top 10 points for declaring independence. Under King George III, the colonies tried many times to free the slaves, but it wasn’t until we became independent was that allowable. In fact, I think one of the first acts of congress was to make slavery illegal. Now, since we live in a federal republic, each state is sovereign, so a minority of landowners, in a minority of states has slaves. I wouldn’t say that slavery was an “American” sin….
Ant Witness,
I agree; I was not trying to argue that slavery was uniquely American. I’m well aware that slavery existed all over the world long before the U.S. came into being. I only cited American slavery as an example.
It needs to be said here that most people throw around the word “shepherd” without having any personal experience with the actual animals. Jesus is compared to a shepherd for a very good and specific set of reasons, not just because it’s a sweet way of re-phrasing the word “leader.” If you go learn about what is required to successfully shepherd these animals, you will quickly realize that it takes tremendous attention to detail, at the level of the individual, and much hands-on contact. Shepherds do not just bark out commands and expect the animals to hop-to. They are different than cattle, even, so He was not called a cattle-herder just as specifically as He was called a sheep-herd (shepherd). Jesus is the only one capable of knowing all intimately at all times because He is as much divine as human. But that doesn’t mean that OT patriarchs didn’t deal with people on an individual basis from time to time. Moses, and later the Judges appointed to help him, as well as King Solomon heard people’s cases one by one. Let’s be clear, here: pastoring and preaching are not exactly synonymous. The latter may be an aspect of the former, but the latter by itself does not fill the needs of the people for the former. Jamal is speaking to the distinction.
Furthermore it needs to be said that Joe and Jamal clearly have different callings to address different problems within today’s church, both of which are very important. There is indeed a rash of preaching that is far more motivational-speaking than Gospel teaching, and as one who wasted a quarter century in the church never getting the whole story, I am an adamant proponent that if what is being preached/teached is not helping people to experience radically changed lives, it’s wasting time. I’m so glad Joe sees this and is so passionate about getting the gospel back into the pulpit. That said, the gospel IS relationship. The whole Bible is the story of God’s relationship with mankind, at every level. God deals with us at the individual level because dealing with a group representative only does not work. Hence the abolition of the priests’ sacrifices once the substitutional sacrifice of Jesus was made and the Holy Spirit was dispensed into every believer, individually.
Jamal’s calling is to focus on a different deficiency during this season, which he does very well. Contrary to what Joe’s impression of the posts may be, I as an equal reader of the posts have never gotten the impression that Jamal is pushing for a complete abolition of all structure, literal and operational, for the church such that it creates new legalism on the other extreme. Jamal is calling for critical thinking and truthful self-examination on the part of the church, which is a very necessary example-setting for what the new believers Joe reaches out for need to see for their own walks. He is calling us to a set of reasonable boundaries where we do not get carried away in one direction or the other with such ideas. Currently, American churches are too focused on building buildings at the cost of not building the people properly. Jamal is asserting a wake-up call that building people can occur with or without buildings. Jesus never built his own temple or tabernacle, he simply used what was handy. His focus was on what was occurring, not where. Jamal is very clearly, in all his postings, trying to get people’s focus back on Jesus.
I think it warranted that Joe apologize for extrapolating so vehemently as to assert that Jamal is not capable of or willing to think critically about what he reads, allowing it to open up a new viewpoint from which to see the existing church, take a lesson and some inspiration from it, and then move forward seeking additional viewpoints and lessons. Just because Jamal is meditating on this issue and opening the discussion to others in this season does not mean that he will be closed-mindedly stuck on this for all eternity or that he has replaced his Lord with a guru. Those slanderous comments are merely lashing out, which needs to be curbed. Clearly, from the bulk of the comments readers think are worth the time to contribute, what is being posted here–on Jamal’s discussion site, not Jamal’s gospel-preaching site–are helping other people step out of their bubbles on occasion and look at things from other viewpoints, too. Many are finding that challenge enlightening, and it is resulting in more people actively participating instead of passively seat-warming.
It is not Biblical, necessary, nor productive to assume that everyone ought to be focused on the same problem as paramount. If you have a house to build, or even renovate for that matter, you cannot put all your resources into one room and leave the rest unbuilt or un-finished. That’s not acceptible. Likewise, if a body has many ailing or diseased parts it is not acceptible to treat one and then say everything is hunky-dory. You would accomplish far more agreeing to handle your respective assignments as players on the same team than argue with each other over what God has already declared by means of making those assignments. You are on the same team–or have you forgotten?
Jamal,
I believe you have quite hit the nail on the head. Thanks for clarifying and simplifying important points that I have felt in my gut but not had the exact words to express.
Dave
Jamal,
Any thoughts on 1 Timonthy? What did the 1st century church have in mind regarding Deacons, Elders, and Bishops? What do these terms mean from an early church perspective? Would such person have been chosen from a close community of believers?
Dave
Dave,
Brother, thx for reading and commenting. You have asked a great question about Deacons, Elders, and Bishops. As I stated in my article, leadership in the church, according to Jesus (Matthew 23:8-12), is to be descriptive and functional, not based on title or hierarchy. Understanding this is key to understanding what scripture says about Elders, deacons, etc…
In the Greek, the Greek word that is translated ‘elder’ is the word ‘presbuteros’ which literally means ‘old man’. A first century ‘elder’ was simply one who was an ‘old man’ in the faith. They were seasoned believers. This does not necessarily have to do with physical age either. Elders were to oversee and shepherd the flock. This means they were care takers. This does not imply hierarchical authority that would violate Jesus’ teaching on kingdom leadership in Matthew 23:8-12.
Elders (those who were seasoned in the faith) were also to be an example to the flock. Peter talks about this in his epistles. Obviously, if the term ‘elder’ were a clerical title, it would not be possible for the rest of the church body that does not have the authority and title of the office of ‘elder’ to follow in the elder’s example. True kingdom leadership, however, is not a title, but a function and a description who’s example is to be emulated and followed by all in the church..
Did you know that Paul sometimes planted churches and left that church before any elders emerged? Since the early church did not operate under the headship of the clergy like today’s institutional church does, this was not a problem. The early church was equipped to operate under Christ’s headship. Paul came back (to the churches he planted) on other trips and then found out that elders emerged (one who is an ‘old man’ in the faith.) It is these elders (those in function, not title) that truly serve as examples to other members of the body.
One of the best books I have read on this subject is a book called ‘Reimagining Church’ by Frank Viola. Here is an exerpt about elders from this book:
“First-century elders were simply spiritual mature men-exemplary Christians who superintended (not controlled or directed) the affairs of the church. Elders were not organizational figureheads. They weren’t hired pulpiteers, professional clergy, or ecclesiastical chairmen. They were simply older brothers (elders-in-fact) carrying out real functions (elder-ing, shepherd-ing, overseeing-ing, etc.).”
Dave, I think you would really like this book (Reimagining Church by Frank Viola). You can purchase this book through Amazon. Let me know if you have any problems obtaining a copy.
blessings,
Jamal
Thanks for the reply. Yes that makes sense. The bible gives roles for parents, as it does for elders. A parent doesn’t have to go to seminary to be authorized to parent.
So how about deacons and bishops. What is their description?
God bless!!
Dave
Dave,
The term ‘Deacon’ comes from the Greek word Diakonos which means ‘servant’ or ‘waiter’. It was not a top down ‘office’ in the way that the institutional system presents it today. It was an esteemed function of service that described a spiritually mature and Spirit filled brother or sister in the church. It was simply a functional and descriptive term, not a title or position.
The term ‘Bishop’ typically comes from the Greek word episkopos which literally means ‘oversight.’ Again, this is not what the term ‘Bishop’ has come to mean. ‘Bishop’ has been redefined to mean something that was never intended, so when we read the word ‘Bishop’ in the scriptures we think of something completely foreign to the New Testament practice. In some denominational settings, a ‘Bishop’ is the typical institutional clerical Pastor that runs the church, and in other denominations, the Bishop is in charge of mulitple institutions in an area. Again, this is foreign to the New Testament practice.
In the New Testament church, an overseer was a descriptive term that described a brother or sister that had the gifting of exercising oversight in regards to the function of the body. This oversight did not in any way prevent the other members of the body from functioning, nor did ‘oversight’ mean that this individual(s) was operating as the delegated ‘head’ of the church. Christ is the head, and He does not delegate that authority and function to any member within the body. A person(s) with the gifting of oversight does not have more authority than the other brothers and sisters in the body, nor were they the only ones allowed to function in corporate church meetings as is the case today. They simply provide guidance for the body as each member fully functions together with one another. I hope that makes sense brother. Great questions!
Blessings to you,
Jamal
Yes, Jamal. It is starting to get a little clearer for me. I was just reading 12th Chapter of Corinthians. Boy does it bolster all of these arguments.
I now see church structure as
Christ
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– — — — —
not
Christ
| | |
Bishop Bishop Bishop
|
Deacon etc etc
| |
Elder Elder etc etc
Cor 12 beautifully describes that it is God who sets up the offices of the church, not man.
“1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.”
The closer we come to authentic church, I believe these offices would just happen as the Holy Spirit gives guidance.
As I examine the first part of this chapter, I also note that the same holds for gifts.
1Cr 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cr 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cr 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
When the erroneous top-down idea of administration is applied to spiritual gifts, we end up with Televangelists who become elevated to a position like almost that of a guru instead of the giftings being evenly distributed among all the people (the greatest being agape which we all should have). I am not saying that a televangelist by definition would then always be a fraud, but it does make me ponder whether the administration so prevalent in the Western mindset frustrates the efficiency of God’s work in the church and in the world. I have no qualms that some of the healings may be authentic, but if we aren’t doing it God’s way, there are more temptations for being puffed up, greed, etc.
I recently went to a fellowship with a group of Chinese believers. It was sooooo refreshing. Their praise was great. First they did American songs and then Chinese songs with a translator. I noticed how the American praise was good but the focus was more on self. The chinese praise was amazingly reverent & very spiritual; kinda like modern day hymns. The people were so open and loving. It was very difficult to understand the church administration. We met in a rented office building and the focus was more on Christ and having people participate than on the standard church model. We sat and talked after eating together (food is vital) and hung out for 3 or 4 hours (devoid of the need for time schedules, etc.) Why does the American church struggle with this so much!!!!!!! Why is it so hard for people to be hamish (Jewish word for being joyfully hospitable and kind to people). At any rate, I really enjoy this discussion. Thanks for the forum.
God bless,
Dave
“instead of the giftings being evenly distributed among all the people”
Yes, indeed! This has been bothering me greatly, too. I can’t fathom how church leadership can ignore so much scripture when they say “We don’t have any openings, sorry, buh-bye now.” The Bible makes it very clear that God creates each one of us, before we were born, for a specific purpose and gives us giftings according to that purpose that we ought to carry out while we’re here. Those purposes are not to serve the secular world, as most church leadership is overly quick to assert. We exist because there is a need in the Body of Christ–otherwise our presence (and therefore God’s effort to create us) is wasted. If we are not allowed to serve our fore-ordained purpose, the Body suffers for lack of our contribution. Even if someone’s gifts are an overabundance at a particular church, leadership ought to be taking action to help that person find placement somewhere in the Body where those gifts are needed. If EVERY believer has a contribution to make, as you have said it should be much more evenly distributed. We should be a team not a caste system. To have a thin upper crust of actual responsibility and relegate everyone else to shaking hands and arranging doughnuts is most assuredly an outrage from God’s point of view. Relatedly, I cannot fathom how church leadership could slap God in the face by denying His purposes for my creation and His choice of gifts and callings for me (and roughly half the population) by deciding across the board that it matters far more what’s going on between my legs than between my ears. I am a fantastic teacher and preacher, and God has given me a lot to say and a lot of guts to say it, but most leadership would have me swapping sh!t rags in the nursery instead because they’re too intimidated to up their game. The hypocrisy of a nation of people who would march down Main to fight discrimination in the secular world because they “believe” it’s wrong but turn right around and assert it in the church without blinking an eye! Who, exactly is asserting this? The men? Well golly gee, what a coincidence. They don’t benefit from that arrangement at all…. What a sacrificial love on the part of the husbands of the Family!
Jamal,
Wow! I am so sorry that you and obviously many of your readers have been hurt or frustrated by the ‘institutional’ church or ‘institutional’ church leaders. In my 40 years of Christian ministry (that began as a youth leader in 1971) I have seen too many go down the path of ‘I’m under noone’s authority but Jesus’ and end up twisting the Word of God rather than submitting to it, and some ended up disallusioned to the point of either crusading against the brethren (which is an abomination according to Proverbs 6:19, see also Eph 4:2-3) or becoming shipwrecked in the faith. I’m not saying that you or any of your readers are to that point, but let’s be careful to distinguish between areas where honest debate is warranted, and areas where the Word speaks clearly. The extreme of denying the hierarchal structure of the church requires “experts” or “smooth talkers” to convince people God’s Word doesnt’ really say what it says. The appointing of elders, the qualifications of elders, and many passages such as Hebrews 13:7, 17, and 24 clearly state there is a leadership structure in the church where certain believers have authority over other believers, where God expects submission to that authority, and where God calls on His people to yield as the horse yields to its rider in James 3:3 where this same Greek word you spoke of is used. (I think that “have confidence in” or “trust” would be a better rendering of the Greek word in this passage, but there is no denying the sense of yielding in the context.)
The Word of God proclaims salvation by grace, but that doesn’t give a license to sin. The Word of God commands elders to take oversight over God’s flock but that doesn’t give them a license to lord it over the flock (1 Peter 5:2-3). But PLEASE NOTE that the apostle Peter didn’t argue against the authority of elders in the church over the people, but rather insisted that the elders not use their authority to lord it over the flock. Let’s follow the apostolic model of honoring what God established in His church through Christ and the Word, and not twisting scripture to dismiss those aspects of the church that have been abused.
Many Christian movements have justified going against the scripture by reinterpreting scripture, and I don’t want to see you go down that road. Paul and Peter reisted the temptation to use their authority to put their own twist on God’s church, and refused to fight against worldliness and fleshliness in the church by reinterpreting scripture to suit themselves.
We can have honest debates on plurality of elders, on the Biblical concept of pastor, and on whether churches should hire staff and own buildings, but we cannot have an honest debate on whether Jesus is the only authority Christ followers answer to within the church, because God established human authorities over Christ followers within His church just as He established human authority over the woman in the family unit. The Word stands. We kneel.
In Christ’s love,
Baron
There is certainly value in what you’ve said here; submission to authority is indeed precedented because no one gets into a position of authority without God’s approval. We saw very clearly in the OT story what God thinks about people bucking the system for its own sake–those who came against Moses and Aaron were killed on the spot because doing so was coming against God’s decision.
But we cannot say all who rebel against authority in the church are of a singular mindset and headed down the same path. There are those who rebel because they do not want to submit to renewal by the Word, and those who rebel because they’re submitted and their leadership is less so. There are times where a congregant must tell his or her pastor, “I’m sorry, but what you’re asking me to do is not Biblical. Is there anything else you would like me to do?” And there are times where a spiritually mature person prayerfully discerns that the annointing has been taken off a pastor and therefore is being led to find a different pastor to be submitted to. Even God’s first choice for king got demoted.
Jamal is beautifully speaking to the mandate to submit to the Holy Spirit as He speaks/leads through others, NOT submit to titles or persons regardless of what they say. What needs to be said is that it’s not an either/or situation. So many are quick to try generalizing and compartmentalizing, labeling and so on, as if everything in life could be neatly divided into shoe boxes. It doesn’t work that way. It’s not many-levels-of-hierarchy or none-whatsoever. It’s not black or white.
It IS about providing structure and guidance to the spiritually immature, which all those elder in the faith are expected to do, AND working together as equals under the sovereign headship of Christ after reaching maturity. Mature believers should be questioning and discussing, iron sharpening iron. But it is not appropriate for someone to assume that because of their title they are automatically more mature than everyone else on every matter and should never be questioned, even by a very sharp spiritual young’un. Much like our secular society, up to age 18 you are considered a minor and therefore subject to other’s vicarious rule. After 18, everyone is considered on equal footing and subject to the same headship. If we applied this concept to the church, people progressing along the path to spiritual maturity would be under the oversight of their elders, but upon “graduation” to spiritual maturity would matriculate into the body as equal with everyone else. Too often we judge one’s suitability for leadership on anything but the appropriate factors.
Jamal’s post (the origin of this thread, by the way) discusses the art of transitioning between these stages and recognizes the need for different types of authority/leadership at different stages. Likewise, it is necessary to recognize the different stages of relationship between the sexes and know what type of response to assign to each. God originally created Adam and Eve equal; He made them unequal for a season to re-iterate His command that people work together, not as parallel independents but as a team, following His authority not any contradictory to it. When Jesus’ work on the cross was finished, the curses were broken and both sexes returned to their former state of righteousness, glory, and dominion with the mandate to get it right this time. The Body will never operate the way it’s supposed to–equals under the single headship of Christ–so long as people are stuck in Old Testament covenant thinking. “My men servants and my woman servants….”
Baron,
Thx again for your comments. I do know where you are coming from. You have said a lot here. I am not advocating an abolishment of leadership. I am stating that the concept of hierarcical leadership is not biblical however. Church leadership should not be ‘one up and one down’ like you have suggested. Just curious, did you read what I said about Hebrews 13:17 in this article? In what way was I being a ‘smooth talker’? I’m curious:)
Wow! Actually not far of from what my own personal view was. However, I have also found from being part of a “discipleship” program that you are right on with your thinking and institutional pastors. Why? I’m puzzled at this. I struggle with this issue as well. I’m in a discipleship program. Shouldn’t my pastors know me pretty well? Not so. Not so at all and this has caused a lot of personal discord within me. I question everyday “how can she “tell” me what to do and then say if you don’t something huge will happen such as I won’t have a place to live? Then she doesn’t know me but rather through other so called leaders? It just doesn’t sit well with me. Idk? My whole thought process is this: My walk with Christ is strong enough for me to discern what His will is for me. Will I mess up? Of course I will! But, I feel I should be given the opportunity to make this decision especially when it concerns His will for me. Especially if I’m being obedient to His call. How can I be threatened by harsh consequences when I’m doing this? I’m not being offered up an option nor a persuasion. It’s do this or I won’t bless you as you go or just do it or else. Hmmmm…I did not come to this “program” because I was desperate but rather because I was obedient to His call of “go give your time to women”. Later that week, He gave me the place. So I packed up my stuff and I came here. I’ve made a lot of progress here. More so than any other place I’ve been. I whole heartedly believe this is because I’m seeking Him like no other season in my life. I want to LIVE.
So much more I could say….
Amy,
Thx for your comment here. I know how you are feeling. I’m sure your ‘pastor’ means well. The real problem is the ‘system’. I used to be an institutional church pastor for a few years. I operated under a basic premise that my job was to ‘make’ the sheep follow me because my job as a ‘shepherd’ and ‘leader’ was dependent upon people (sheep) ‘following’ me. It became about ‘control’. This is why we set up structures and programs that would allow me to ‘oversee’ people, even though I did not know them. These ‘programs’ and ‘structures’ built the organization which I was ultimately controlling and calling the shots for. Although most of what we see in ‘discipleship’ programs and leadership structures is about getting people to ‘submit’ and ‘obey’ (control), there is nothing in the scriptures that describe a leader’s role as being one who has selective authority whose job it is to ‘make’ the sheep submit to them. Actually, Jesus taught that leadership in the church would be exactly the OPPOSITE of that. The reason for this is because Christ is the only true Head of the church. Instead, we have set up a ‘system’ in which a human being is the acting ‘head’. This is truly unfortunate. When you get a chance Amy, read and meditate on Matthew 23:8-12. There is so much there about TRUE biblical leadership.
Everything written in the New Testament about church leadership should be understood in light of the spirit of Matthew 23:8-12. Unfortunately, many passages are badly translated and are completely twisted to fit a hierarchical paradigm of church leadership that completely contradicts the heart of what Jesus was saying in Matthew 23:8-12. This is why the institutional church today looks so different from the church we read about in the New Testament.
This makes so much sense to me. I’m finding what your saying is more and more true. The institutional church is truly getting away from what the new testament church is. Even though my church says that this isn’t happening and they’re trying to do what Jesus talks about. Is it like this in all churches? I just don’t know because I’ve really only attended 2 churches in my life. The church I attend now is the one that weighs heavily on my mind tho.
Thank you for your insight and scriptures. I will read them as well as meditate in them.
Hi Jamal,
I love your perspectives, thanks.
One thing in this article I’m finding strange. If we use the correct Greek word in the place of ‘submit’ the sentence would actually be rendered ‘persuade or win over your leaders’ as in we are being exhorted in Hebrews to persuade or win over our leaders. Don’t you think? Or does it somehow mean to say ‘respond well to your leaders efforts to win you over or persuade you’ ?
Thanks, and blessings!
Ashton
Ashton,
Thx for reading this article, and for your question. The specific word that is used exhorts the reader to allow themselves to be easily persuaded by those who lead them. I hope that makes sense:)
Good article.
I have raised 3 children. I fully understand that you have to let go at some point and persuasion is all that you have left. I can live with that.
I have also wondered about Eph. 4:11-13 (HCSB) And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
Verse 13 is where my question arises. It comes across to me that when “we all reach unity in the faith and in the acknowledge of God’s Son” that we are, in a sense, on equal ground. From there each of us are to pastor one another and be in submission to one another. Does this sound off to you?
I go out with my 20yr old son and my 3 yr old son and you should see the looks we get!!! haha
Jamal, as a parent of a 19 and 22 year old I want to say you have it spot on! (Regarding parenting as we have learned God does – my paraphrase of this).
But can be so painful
quotes from your opening article that I so identify with;
“Freedom brought more choices and more potential for mistakes. Every time these things occurred, I longed for the simpler days of the past when my daughter was younger and there was simply less choices and more rules.”
“As a dad, In some ways, I am finding it harder to parent my daughter now that she is older. There are things I desperately want to show her, and ways that I want to direct her that have to do with her well being. She has to desire that guidance, however. It cannot be forced. I have found that it is only when people recognize that they have issues, that they begin to look for help with those issues”
“Sometimes people and groups become more open to being persuaded by leadership when they get desperate. Many times it is hardship, failure, and brokenness that eventually lead to desperation and openness to being led. As a parent, or as one who loves the church, that can be painful to watch.”
your opening article is full of grace and truth (as Jesus)
thank you
Marion,
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the blog. I appreciate the encouragement and am glad to know that you identify with what is written here. Blessings to you on this journey:)