Make no mistake about it, the church in America is at a crossroads. In the lives of many unsuspecting well intentioned believers and church communities, there is wide gaping foundational hole. Deep down, most know there has been something foundational missing. As a result, many have been working hard to identify what that may be and are presenting ‘filler’ to fill up our deep foundational hole, so to speak.
(Radical Together by David Platt & The Amway Gospel)
In a large section of the evangelical system, the message of ‘Radical’ and ‘Radical Together’ by David Platt has grown to a fever pitch. The reason that I am mentioning these books here is because the message that Platt presents in these books are not unique to him and his circle, but represent a large section of what many in the evangelical system are hearing today.
This movement is simply the latest that is attempting to address what they perceive to be missing from the system; and what the solution should be. Several months ago, I did a book review of David Platt’s book ‘Radical’ (click here to read it). Needless to say, It caused quite a stir. ‘Radical Together’ was written by Platt to further expound upon the concepts communicated in ‘Radical’ from a corporate perspective.
Unfortunately, the 3 major errors that Platt’s book ‘Radical’ was built upon (detailed in my previous review) are repeated in ‘Radical Together’. The point of this article is not to be a book review, however, but an assessment of what has come to be known as the ‘Missional / Disciple-Making’ church movement.
Please understand that my intention is not to attack the heart or question the motivation of a David Platt, Francis Chan, or anyone else who is preaching a similar message. I am convinced that these brothers in the Lord are burdened for the church and are motivated by love. My intention is to simply examine and evaluate their message. Because of the popularity of this message among the evangelical system, however, there really are not many that are publicly examining and questioning this issue in a thoughtful way. I would like to see this change.
The Amway Gospel
Several years ago, I was employed in a high stress job that had a large turnover ratio. Many of my coworkers didn’t enjoy their job, and their attitude made that quite apparent. After working with a particular coworker for a couple of years, I began to notice an abrupt change in his behavior toward me. He began to notice me. He began to go out of his way to speak to me and ask me how I was doing. He began to treat me as if we were old buddies from High School. I was intrigued to say the least. Before long, he was asking if we could get together outside of work because he had something that he would like to share with my wife and I. While I was very intrigued by the abrupt change in my co-worker’s behavior, I was also glad to have a new friend who was so interested in my life.
As my wife and I sat across our kitchen table looking at my new best friend from work, he began to share how an amazing company had changed his life. He was literally beaming with excitement. He began to share that this company made lots of different things, but they were best known for their soap products. That’s right, he started telling us about various kinds of soap…dishwashing soap, laundry soap, bath soap, bleach, various cleaning supplies, etc…All of these supplies, however, were made by a company named Amway.
At first, I wanted to laugh and dismiss what I was hearing. After hearing my co-worker’s presentation, however, I actually became excited about the soap. This seemed like the most special soap in the world that could change our lives! Since we buy soap anyway, I reasoned with my wife that it made sense to consider the soap that my new friend was telling us about.
My new friend had become a distributor of these products for Amway, and he assured me that I could obtain these life changing products through him if I was interested. He was a great salesman, and I was legitimately excited. If these products caused this kind of change in my co-worker’s behavior, I reasoned that it must be some spectacular soap from a spectacular company. Just as soon as we began to order products through our new friend, he told me that there was more to the story if I was interested in hearing more about it. How could I say no?
He began to share that to really take advantage of the possibilities of Amway, there was more to it than just buying products from him. Although he was a distributor of Amway products, he went on to tell me that it would be better if I joined the company and became a distributor myself.
By becoming a distributor, I could make money by directly buying products for our household, as well as selling these products to my friends and family. I would just need to do a few things to become a distributor, and I would be ready to sell these amazing products! After all, if these products were so good, I’d be doing my friends a favor by getting these products in their hands. Now, I was really thinking! This would be a new focus and direction for my life.
After taking some time to discuss this opportunity with my wife, I was almost ready to sign on the dotted line. Then, the real goal of becoming an Amway distributor became apparent through a conversation with my friend. He told me that becoming a distributor involved more than just selling amazing products. He went on to share that to fully realize the potential of Amway, I would need to sell the job of becoming an Amway distributor to others under me. Simply put, I would do exactly what he was doing to me!
The goal for me all along was NOT to buy, use, and enjoy the soap, but to become a distributor! The soap was just bait, so to speak. I would make money from all the people under me who sold other distributorships and products. It was a ‘pyramid’ scheme.
Although I was excited about the amazing ‘soap’ that I was originally told about, the focus was quickly taken off the ‘soap’ once I bought in. Why couldn’t we just focus on the soap? Let’s use this amazing soap. Let’s smell it. Let’s wear it on our clothes, so to speak! I was excited about the soap, not the prospect of roping people into a new duty or job.
Do you see where I am going with this? The evangelical system has become a glorified ‘pyramid’ scheme. Like the soap, we are taught to tell people about this amazing man named Jesus Christ who loves us and died for us. We tell the world that He is the living bread. We tell people that the water He gives will satisfy. We tell people that he comes to give us abundant life, etc… then, shortly after a person is interested in this Christ and says yes, the focus changes. Instead of discovering and experiencing the depths and beauty of this glorious man, we are quickly taught that there are things we must ‘do’ to get more and train more Christ ‘distributors’.
This was true in my own life. As a young man, I fell in love with Jesus Christ and I said yes to His proposal. The more time I spent in the religious system, however, the more that the focus shifted off of Him and on something else. I was taught that more ‘distributors’ were needed, and my job was to go get them and train them in the same way that my co-worker sold me on Amway. I speak from experience when I say that this focus on ‘doing’ does not lead to life, but away from life. There is a reason for this.
Missional Confusion
In my opinion, ‘Missional Confusion’ are the two words that accurately sum up most of institutional Christendom. This would also include most of the ‘Missional’ Church movement that exists today as well. Just what is God’s mission anyway? That’s the million dollar question that we keep getting wrong. It is easy to take a verse of scripture here and there to try to make a case for one particular ‘mission’ over another. If we look at the whole of the scriptures, however, we’ll see that God has only ONE overarching ‘Mission’.
The mission of God is the revelation and expression of His Son, Jesus Christ.
God has never been interested in just telling us about Himself, rather He has desired to fully dwell with us physically. God, who is Spirit, has desired a body to fully express Himself. This is exactly why God the Son broke into our realm and came to the earth. In Christ, the fullness of all that God is fully dwells in bodily form! He is the real temple that the Old Testament temple was simply a picture of. Consider this passage of scripture that gives us a hint of just how big this Christ is:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him…For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col. 1:15-16, 19-20, NASB)
Before sin came on the scene (Genesis 1 & 2) we see that God and man dwell together. Obviously, sin separated God and man. In Christ, however, man and God fully dwell with one another. After the death and resurrection of Christ in which Christ’s followers were literally grafted and immersed into His body (1 Cor. 12:12-13, Rom. 11:17), believers are now described as being ‘in Christ’ over 200 times in the New Testament. We have become limbs, so to speak, of Christ’s multi-membered body! He (Christ) is the location in which God and man fully dwell.
Can you believe it?
The point is, a body gives life expression. For example, my arm does not ‘do’ anything to be my arm, rather, its location and connection to the rest of my body give my arm life and expression of me. This is true of all my body parts. The same is true of Christ’s body.
When Christ walked this earth, His body gave expression of the Father’s life that dwelt inside of Him. He also said that as as He lived by the Fathers’s life, so we too would live by His life. He was speaking of the future when His followers would be grafted into Him and empowered with His divine life. Christ still has a body on the earth today, and His mission has not changed! Although God’s mission is expressing His Son through His Son’s body (us), we have changed the Mission of God into a work we must ‘do’. Christ said that when He is lifted up, He will draw people to Himself. If we believed that, we would be free to know and express Him. Instead we have occupied ourselves with building His church, something He said He would do.
When it comes to ‘mission’, there are a couple of ’buzz words’ out there today that sound good on the surface. When these terms are examined more closely, however, we’ll see that the focus actually leads away from God’s mission of expressing Christ. It is a tragedy indeed.
Buzz word #1- Making Disciples
Without repeating the bulk of what I said about this topic in my last review of ‘Radical’, there is something that I feel desperately needs repeating here. Most of what is taught about ‘making’ or ‘training’ disciples comes from an individualistic standpoint that is blind to our glorious multi-membered body of Christ that is revealed through Paul’s letters to the churches.
Jesus desires to be expressed in every place among every nation. Jesus also said that when a disciple is fully trained, He will be like His master. If the New Testament only contained the four gospels, then I would have no problem with approaching ‘making’ disciples from an individualistic standpoint. As you know, however, it takes much more than individuals to fully manifest the person of Christ now. He is much bigger than we have known.
Christ went from being a single individual (before Pentecost) to being expressed through a multi-membered body after Pentecost. Those who were separate individual disciples before Pentecost, are now grafted into Christ Himself and have become members of His very own body. Revealing this multi-membered body of Christ was the essense of Paul’s gospel that he presented to the churches. This multi-membered body is entirely different than Christ’s body before Pentecost.
This is precisely why Paul told the Corinthian community not to view Christ according to the flesh as they once did. Consider this verse:
“Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.” (2Cor. 5:16)
Not looking at Christ from the standpoint as He was before Pentecost (according to the flesh) changes everything. The problem today is that the mystery of the post Pentecost Christ who is now represented by a multi-membered body is still a mystery that much of the church is blind to. This is why we keep approaching Christ and ‘disciple-making’ from an Old Covenant perspective. This is the problem with much of the ‘Making Disciples’ conversation. Our view of Christ has been too small. He really is the foundation that has been missing.
Unlike our modern day celebrity preachers, Paul did not preach a message of more ‘doing’ (making disciples) to the churches that were caught in crisis and sin in his day. In each of his letters, he presents the person of Christ to them (gospel), and reminds them of their righteous standing in Him. The person of Christ is the solution to every problem as He is the source of life. After all, it is only when we are ignorant of or forget the person of Christ that problems arise. When a group of people learn Christ in this way, realize their identity in Him, and begin to function together by His divine life in community, then we see Christ fully manifested in an area. Simply put, Christ is the sum of all His body parts. The heart of a ‘disciple’ is all of Christ, not simply one part of Him. Individually, we are only one part of Him. (1 Cor. 12:12)
Buzz word # 2- Gospel Centered / Gospel Focused / Gospel driven
This is another phrase that can easily mislead us. After all, isn’t the gospel good? Of course, as long as what is being presented is actually the gospel. In my experience, the circle of the evangelical system that focuses on being ‘gospel’ centered actually knows the gospel the least. I say this for two major reasons:
1. The ‘gospel’ is not an action or a message about an action, but a person!
Much of American Christianity is based around preventing people from going to hell. As a result, the American gospel has been boiled down to presenting Jesus as one who remedied the problem of going to hell. The American gospel can be summed up as a message containing facts about Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection so we can have eternal life by accepting Him. Although this is true, this is NOT the gospel of the New Testament.
Paul said in 1 Cor. 2:2 that he was determined to know nothing among them except Christ and Him crucified. To be honest, I never understood what Paul meant by this.
How many times could Paul tell the Corinthian church that Jesus died on the cross for their sins?
Wouldn’t the church get tired of hearing the same thing over and over?
What about all the other topics of scripture such as; how to use our money wisely (or) how to stay pure (or) how to have a great marriage (or) how to reach our city & world (or) how to make disciples (or) how to pray and fast more (or) how to study the Bible etc…
The reason that I had these questions was because of my small view of Jesus Christ. I did not know that He is so big that He could literally be our focus and theme continually. A friend of mine recently said that he could talk about the mysteries of the person of Jesus Christ everyday for a year and never repeat himself. This same friend also paid a visit to our church community and proceeded to talk with us about the person of Christ for only two days. After the two days were over, we were so full of Christ that we could not contain any more. My friend did not share about our need to be ‘gospel’ focused, rather he just shared Christ. That’s when it hit me…
The gospel is a Person!
2. The Gospel is not just a ‘message’ to be delivered, but a person to be expressed! (1 John 1:1-3)
Remember, in times past God talked about Himself through messengers and prophets, but now He fully expresses Himself through His Son. The Son gives the invisible God visible expression. If you want to know if a community is truly ‘Gospel’ focused, look for Christ’s expression. To be honest, this is quite rare. Sadly, the institutional church cannot do this.
A ‘gospel’ centered church is not one who talks about being ‘gospel’ centered, rather it is a church community in which all the parts are visibly expressing the portion of Christ in them. In the institutional church setting, only a few selective persons are allowed to express themselves. Unfortunately, many times even when those few select people express Christ from the stage, they are not expressing Him, but information about ‘doing’ in His name.
When the mystery of Christ the person is truly presented, the whole body comes alive and begins to express Him. This is how we know if the ‘gospel’ has actually been presented. This visible expression by all the body parts of Christ is how the gospel is ‘proclaimed’. This is exactly why New Testament church communities were instructed to speak Christ (truth) to one one another in church meetings and outside of church meetings. (Eph 4:25)
Remember, the gospel (good news) is a person (Christ) who expresses Himself. It takes the body to do that. This is not a ministry we ‘do’ as the religious system incorrectly teaches, rather it is a state of being that naturally flows into expression. I challenge you to take a hard look at those whose message is about being ‘Gospel Centered’ or ‘Gospel Focused’. Look at the institutions they lead. Visit their church meetings and ask these questions:
1. Is Christ the functional head of their local church community, or has a select person or group assumed that function (clergy / elders)?
2. When the body gathers together, is the whole body allowed to express Christ freely, or is that only reserved for a qualified few from the stage?
3. When / if the members of the body do express themselves, do they express the person of Christ or something else?
If Christ is not the acting Head and the body is not functioning and expressing Christ, that community has NOT yet been built around the gospel (Jesus Christ).
While we must recognize the foundational problem that exists today, it is imperative that we do not keep attempting to fill this void with that which cannot and does not fill the void. Our good works, and our messages about the person of Christ cannot replace the person of Christ Himself. May He truly be the foundation we are seeking. I’d like to leave you with a couple of important questions:
Has your life been built on this foundation? Has your church community been built on this foundation?
May this just be the beginning of our journey, not the end. There is more than we have seen.
(For further reading about this, here are a few recommended articles)
Discipleship, Mission, & Church: A Plea To Learn Our History (By Frank Viola)
Some Thoughts About The Purpose (By Milt Rodriguez)
Why The House Of God Is A House Of Confusion (By Jamal Jivanjee)
Unlearning Discipleship…Why We Should Forget What We Have Heard (By Jamal Jivanjee)
Wow Jamal! You nailed it bro! At first I had to chuckle about the Amway bit. Being from the Grand Rapids area where Amway was started I knew what was coming and thought to myself, “Oh no, you didn’t!” I see what you are saying and it resonates with me. We do not have “make disciples” by preaching Christ, Christ builds His church when others “see” Christ expressed through His Body:us.He will build His Church by the visible expression of Him! Feels right to my Spirit bro! As always makes me wish I was part of such a body. Oh I want it so much! To be able to freely express Him and see others do the same and as a by-product, drawing others to us, adding to the church. What a dream, for me anyway. All of you who are so blessed to be a part of this kind of body life, express away, spread this everywhere by you very existence! I have to say Jamal I think this is your best post I have read to date! Great job!
Pam,
Thx for the encouraging words here sister. When Christ is truly preached, according to the New Testament, it is for the express purpose of bringing individuals (living stones) into Christ’s life and building them together with other believers. When other believers (living stones) are built together in community, this is the ‘house’ or ‘Temple’ that the Lord is building. Obviously, each living stone has a unique and vital expression of Christ to express! All the stones must express Christ in them! This is the heart of 1 Peter 2:5-9
You are right, finding this kind of a community is rare and precious. I am realizing just how beautiful and rare the kind of community we are a part of really is. May the Lord increase His expression and fullness through His body more and more in the days ahead!
Jamal,
I’m glad I got the chance to catch this article. This has a lot to say, and many of the thoughts you expressed are the same as those I’ve had this past year. I’d like to offer a few thoughts that came to mind while reading this. In doing so, I’m speaking from my (not-so-proud-of) personal past experience as an atheist, and how I saw this missional movement you described from that side of the fence.
I can say one reason most non-believers steer clear of any church pretty much follows the Amway example you used to the letter- once they become infatuated or even the least bit interested, the feeling dissipates once they become burdened with the doing or the prospect of doing. If they don’t want to do, there are liberal amounts of guilt backed up by any given Bible verse to press the issue. This is tragic, but it is a reality.
Another reason goes back to buzz word #2. You are absolutely correct in that much of American Christianity is based around preventing people from going to hell (or as Frank Viola has put it, a “celestial fire-insurance policy”- I really like that phrase). When confronted with being told how sinful and miserable we are, and how must accept the gospel or suffer for eternity, this does not draw people to Christ. If it does, it is out of fear and not love. Usually, this type of thing makes a non-believer bitter, angry, and pushes them even further away. Saving souls and reaching the lost is only a slice of the pie, not the whole pie unto itself. The whole pie (the eternal purpose) is much, much greater.
I wondered that since none of the above worked (at least for me) in getting a non-believer turned around, what DID work? I recently came to understand that it is not I, as an individual, who goes out and makes another individual disciple. This is very artificial, and at best, what I am doing is telling someone about the historical Jesus. I can also get them to believe Abe Lincoln was a great man as well. The fact is, it is not I who am leading others to Christ, it is He who lives in me who leads others to Himself. Living by his divine life is the key, and disciples are a natural byproduct of this love that reciprocates-it just returns to the source, exactly like that of the triune God. I’m finding it very true that without Him, I can indeed do nothing.
Great article brother, you are a brave man and I am so grateful the Lord brought us together after all these years. Over the past year, I have seen His love work through you, and others as well, and THAT is how he captured my heart after spending so much time in darkness and wandering. Love does not get much purer than that. Love you bro!
well said, andy – especially the 4th paragraph – i believe it is Jesus who does the “work” of drawing people to Himself and that we just set the stage & we usually do that by expressing Jesus in how we live our lives – but people being people get in a hurry to make disciples, get caught up in amway-like schemes & focus on the numbers, church planting strategies, etc.
Andy,
Brother, thx for what you shared here. Your perspective is powerful. I am humbled that the Lord has caused our paths to cross after all these years. It is proof that Christ is really building His church, and we are part of this grand story! I love you man!
I read the article and it seems the author seeks to make a sincere attempt in helping believers not to get themselves entangled in movements that will not solve the problem of the ‘void’ of what the church is suppose to ‘do’. He genuinely tries to warn the brethren of movement-driven attempts of doing church, which is great and yet I found one part, which is the most important of all, to say the least, very, very troubling.
In His attempt to reminding us that it is all about Jesus, which is great, he subtly swithes the Gospel which Paul describes in 1 Cor chp 2, as ‘Christ & Him Crucified’ & in 1 Cor 15 as Christ dying for our sins & rising again on the third day to simply Jesus Himself is the ‘Gospel’.
Why is this troubling? according to Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, it is dangreous to ‘distort’ the Gopsel in any way and to alter it by adding or even reducing it down to something that is not described in the Bible as the Gospel by which we have received, by which we stand in & by which we are ‘saved’ (see 1 Cor 15:1-4)
Although the person of Jesus is logically ‘distinct’ from His redemptive work, neither Paul nor any of the others apostles seek to ‘separate’ Jesus from His propitiating death for our sins & His death conquering resurrection from the grave as the biblical ‘Gospel’ and so we should not attempt to that either, but realize that it pleased God to reveal Himself to us sinners through the Cross of Christ (see 1 Cor chp 1)
May the Lord bless you with His peace by His grace in Christ
Hey Jamal!
Great post bro. I really enjoy the light that your analogy and perspective shines on the reality that the institutional church SYSTEM cannot truly advance the manifestation of Christ, His body, and His kingdom…bcs in reality, it is like all other man-made organizations who take their pattern after the tower of Babel. They’re a toxic mixture of “building something for-and-to God”, but there’s always a man who sits on top; showing that these SYSTEMS are really unto the glory of man, and not God.
These “movements” [like Radical, etc] are just warmed-over worldly marketing and motivational endeavors, with a large seasoning of spiritual truth and “good things” mixed-in. But the heart really seems to substantially be unto man, more than unto Christ. Like King Saul in the OT; he was truly called and anointed, and performed a lot of “business for God” in executing his governing duties. But the situation manifested all kinds of witchcraft and ungodliness bcs the reality was that Saul was living unto himself, and not unto God.
There’s no doubt that there are individuals within the system that are really expressing Christ and building His kingdom and experiencing some measure of true fellowship, but those are doing it in spite of the system in which they dwell. And many others are not building Christ’s kingdom at all, but are zealously building and advancing the system itself, due to a variety of motivations (misplaced zealousness, deception, ego gratification, false sense of duty, etc).
It’s like all of man’s governments too. Some are absolutely terrible, and some are pretty decent; but none are the full and glorious manifestation of the kingdom of Christ. And they will all be shown to be failed attempts of man governing himself. I’m convinced that God wants these imperfect systems and governments functioning in this time period, but a reason is to show their futility to those that have eyes to see, so that they can begin working-out living in the more true-to-heart [non-institutionalized] version of the church and the kingdom, which is still just a deposit of what’s to come upon His return.
The less dependence we have on man’s best organizational and institutional ideas and the more we learn to seek, know, declare, and live-by Christ together by the Spirit; then the more we have of Him, His church, and His kingdom.
Trevor,
Well said bro! You summed up the system quite well. I think all would do well to take a close look at how you have described the religious system here. I am certain that much of what you said here could help answer some questions that many have had. I appreciate you bro!
Bro Jamal, I wrote several extremely long paragraphs saying much about many things, but then this one thought entered my heart, and now this is all I desire to say:
What joy a father holds in his heart when he sees his son expressing his himself(the father), through his son’s body. A particular way of expression, a walk, a tilt of head, any physical attribute, a certain look in his eyes, the color of his hair, etc. What does that do to a father’s heart?
Now, consider how big our eternal Father’s heart is, and how big is that desire in His eternal heart to see the expression of His eternal Son Jesus Christ, through His Son’s body? That is not confusing is it? That is only Love, plain and simple, a Father’s love for His Son, and a Son’s Love for His Father, and the son’s heart to please His Father and vise-versa. We are the body of the Son, and Father’s heart smiles as He sees the expression of His Son’s body, us together as one body. Let’s not forget that all the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Christ, and so it is the joy of Father’s heart to see Himself in His Son and His Son’s body.
Now we would do well to ask ourselves: How could a father enjoy as much to see scattered individual body parts all about, which can only have one expression by the one part all alone? The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, and the fullness of Christ requires the many parts of His body joined in such a unity of Life that when the many body parts come together there is not a seam to be seen, a full body expression of Christ, the Son, through His body. What a beautiful eternal love!
Okay Jamal, I shall take the well known sister’s prerogative to change my mind.
I would like add a few lines in what I originally wrote in those long paragraphs.
And it is simply this, Christ asks: Who do you say that I am? But my experience in the body of Christ tells that what is true of Christ is true of His body, and so I present this question to the saints: Who do you say that you are?
Great comments and great question Kat. Answering the question of who Christ is will automatically lead to answering the question of who we are.
I love how every time you share, you share the mystery of who Christ is in such a way that expands our understanding of the mystery and glory of Christ.
Once again, you have driven home a spiritual truth in an epic manner! I appreciate the effort and dedication that you have to allow God to use your pen to delive a timely and necessary message to open the eyes of our hearts. Most of what I have been reading and listening to of late (books, messages from 09 and 10 Threshold meetings and the Word) are each echoing this same truth – that we are a corporate body reflecting a corporate God – not a corporation seeking to expand our holdings. The “version” of the gospel I grew up with was just as you described: “Jesus can save you from hell! Pray the prayer and be saved! Now, tell everybody else so they won’t go to hell either!” While there is some truth to this version (well, the fact that Jesus will save you from hell) it is only a dim reflection of the true gospel of Christ. This “version” is all about ME. All about “the lost”. It focuses everything on our needs and totally neglects God’s desire – to have an expression of His Son’s body on earth bringing Him glory.
You remain in our prayers as God continues to use you and express Himself through His body that meets in Nashville.
Mark,
Brother, thx for your kind words. Thx also for reading and commenting here with your perspective. I completely agree with what you shared about the ‘gospel’ you grew up with. It really is amazing to see how incredibly ‘dim’ of a gospel we have been presented with in the system. The more He opens my eyes to His glorious Son and His Eternal Purpose, the more I realize how incredibly good this ‘good news’ really is!
Thx for your prayers for us here in Nashville. Good things are happening!
Jamal
I have a few comments and thoughts. I also want you to know that I am writing in a spirit of humility as well as a spirit of concern for the church. I also know you do not mind a little interaction–if that is what we want to call it
–I also know that we both long to see the nations know Christ and for those who do to be good ambassadors for Him as well.
“Christ went from being a single individual (before Pentecost) to being expressed through a multi-membered body after Pentecost. Those who were separate individual disciples before Pentecost, are now grafted into Christ Himself and have become members of His very own body. Revealing this multi-membered body of Christ was the essense of Paul’s gospel that he presented to the churches. This multi-membered body is entirely different than Christ’s body before Pentecost.”
How do you define a disciple? As I read stuff you have written it sounds as if you are saying a disciple, who is like his master, is a group of believers in one area who collectively represent Jesus and that a disciple is not an individual. Jamal, would you call yourself a disciple?
How would you explain all the post-pentecost times in Acts where Paul met with “the disciples” or “found disciples”? Are those individuals? And if so, did Luke misrepresent them by calling them disciples? Did Paul go to them and say, “Wait, you have it all wrong?”
“Although God’s mission is expressing His Son through His Son’s body (us), we have changed the Mission of God into a work we must ‘do’.”
Is expressing His Son any different than work that we do for God? In the Gospels it says that Jesus spoke only what was taught him by the father and he said, “I always DO the things that are pleasing to Him.” How do you define your word expressing? If Jesus expressed the Father by saying and doing upon his own admission, do we not express Christ by saying and living by the words he spoke and doing the things he did?
We also not only have to look at the pre-pentecost and post-pentecost expressions of the body of Christ, but we also need to look at what the NT says about the Christ who will return. We have not seen him and will not until he returns.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
1 Peter 1:8
Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory,
It is an amazing thought to think that a man or even a group of men can perfectly represent Jesus, but we are not going to see that because it would nearly eliminate our need for Christ himself and become reliant on a mere expression of him. We will be made to be like him but not until he returns. I would be weary of thinking that there is a place where there is a perfect expression of Christ. I am not sure if you think there is something like that out there, but that is the vibe I get from your writings such as: “When a group of people learn Christ in this way, realize their identity in Him, and begin to function together by His divine life in community, then we see Christ fully manifested in an area”. Really? Fully manifested Christ by a group of people?
“The ‘gospel’ is not an action or a message about an action, but a person!”
I do believe that Christ is the gospel, or good news. But the clear thing in any group of people who say they believe in Jesus is the WHAT about Jesus do you believe. In the Greek if you look at the word gospel, evangelism, angel they are all derivatives of the same word which encompasses a message. And we have to look at what was done with the “gospel”. It is proclaimed, preached, heard, obeyed, presented, confessed, distorted etc…If the gospel is not a message, yes of Jesus, and the correct message, what is it?
“The Gospel is not just a ‘message’ to be delivered, but a person to be expressed! (1 John 1:1-3)”
If we read your reference above to 1 John, in those verses it says three times that Paul’s goal and the goal of the apostles is to “proclaim” Christ and testify to Christ. I know you used the word “just” in the above quote, but c’mon, it seems as if you are using that word as an out because you know it is a message. And you even said previously in this post that the gospel is not a message. Is the gospel a message or not?
“If you want to know if a community is truly ‘Gospel’ focused, look for Christ’s expression. To be honest, this is quite rare. Sadly, the institutional church cannot do this. A ‘gospel’ centered church is not one who talks about being ‘gospel’ centered, rather it is a church community in which all the parts are visibly expressing the portion of Christ in them. In the institutional church setting, only a few selective persons are allowed to express themselves. Unfortunately, many times even when those few select people express Christ from the stage, they are not expressing Him, but information about ‘doing’ in His name.”
Once again, define your terms, express, expression, expressing. And the “institutional church” as you call it CANNOT express Christ?? I will say that you are wrong. Webster defines the verb “express” in many ways and one of them is “to give or convey a true impression of”. The true impression of Christ is Christ himself which will be revealed to us upon his return. Webster also defines the verb “express” in this way as well, “to cause (a gene) to manifest its effects in the phenotype; also : to manifest or produce (a character, molecule, or effect) by a genetic process”. YIKES, that is confusing, but a phenotype describes the observable characteristics of a plant or animal which point to the genotype–the not visible stuff–or type of genes that cause that observable trait to appear as it does. When we “express” Christ to others, our observable characteristics which are being conformed more to be like Christ, whom we were grafted into, will point to the genes we posses, which are Christ’s. Figuratively speaking. And we know that process will not end until the day of Christ Phil 1:6.
Be very very careful saying that what you call the “institutional church” CANNOT express Christ, because, if you think outside of the niche of church you are espousing for a moment, you may look around and find a person or a group of people who ARE expressing Christ, maybe not perfectly, but who are waiting for the blessed hope of Christ’s return, in order to bow before him and know and see His perfect body.
We are also not told in Scripture to be an “expression” of Christ but rather we are told by Paul to “be imitators of God”, “be transformed” and promised we are being transformed into His image. That might be mincing words, but I would probably prefer to use the verb “to imitate Christ” rather than “to express Christ”.
In spite of all my comments and questions, all of our striving for clarifying the Gospel and walking as Jesus did, should constantly be rooted in Scripture and Christ should be who we fix our eyes on constantly, for apart from that, yours and mine and man’s plans will fail.
Praying that God constantly changes all of us, the Holy Spirit opens the Scriptures to us, and Christ will come to us quickly.
Brett
Brett,
Thx so much for reading and commenting here. You have asked some great questions. In the course of trying to address some of what you shared here, I may ask you some questions. I am not trying to divert from what you have asked , but hope to shed some more light on what we are talking about here. Questions are a good way to do just that. Let me address some of your points:
1. About my definition of what a disciple is, it is important to ask the right questions. So, in order to answer your question about what my definition of a ‘disciple’ is, I need to ask you a question. I promise I will give you a definition as we dialogue. Please answer this:
In Matthew 28:19, Jesus said “Go and make disciples of all the nations”. Why do you think Jesus wants disciples of Himself in all the nations? What is Jesus’ definition of a disciple?
2. Regarding what I mean when I say we are to ‘Express’ Christ, I also need to ask you a few questions. Read John 6:56-57.
What did Jesus mean when He said that He lived by the Father’s life, and in the same way, we would live by His life?
Who’s life was being expressed when Christ walked the earth?
What did Paul mean in Phil. 2:12-13? Who is really working?
What does Hebrews 4:9-11 mean, and how could this relate to the ‘work’ that Paul is talking about in Phil. 2:12-13? How could this relate to expressing Christ?
One last question regarding ‘expressing’ Christ…Christ created all things to be a picture of Himself, especially our bodies. Think about your arm.
How does your arm express itself?
Does it have to think about what to do or how to be an arm?
Did it have to figure out what its function was?
What keeps the arm alive and functioning?
Which part of your body tells your arm what to do? (This is a tricky question that has deep implications)
What if your arm was in an environment in which it was not able to function, or if it was not receiving instructions? Would that be healthy? Do you see how these questions could shed some light on ‘expressing’ Christ?
Answering these questions may help you understand why I believe that fully expressing Christ is not possible in an institutional environment. Also, take a look at Trevor’s comment above. It should be helpful as well. I know there are many good brothers and sisters in Christ that are still in the institutional setting, but what Trevor had to say in his comment above about how this affects them is spot on in my opinion.
Also, I think you have confused what I said about ‘fullness’ and have confused that term with the word ‘perfection’. Let me set the record straight. I do not believe that there is a ‘perfect’ church out there at this point. You are right, perfection is coming when he returns (1Cor. 13:10) and that day is still future. I am NOT talking about perfection, but fullness.
According to Ephesians 1:22-23, the church is the fullness of Christ. Read the passage. As His body operates, His fullness is manifested. This is a present tense description of His body that will also increase in the future. Ephesians 1:22-23 is not a verse that applies later and not now. It is fulfilled now and will continue to be fulfilled in the future. The more that I experience life in the New Testament Church (organic church), the more I realize that His fullness dwells in His body! It has been a huge blessing to me, and we’re just getting started!
Brett, my guess is that all you have ever experienced is church life in the institutional setting. Because of this, it makes sense that you have resigned that ‘fullness’ is something in the future. Trust me, I have been a part of the institution, and I have left it for a reason. Body life outside the confines of the institution is incomparably rich, and I am just beginning this life! It is hard to make a judgement call on something you have never experienced however.
Regarding the fact that the gospel is more than just a message, I need to ask you a few questions…
Do you know what the point or heart of the message of ALL scripture is? (hint: see John 5:39)
Is it possible to separate the very point of the message of the scripture from the scripture itself?
Likewise, can we separate the very point of the ‘gospel’ from the gospel itself?
Do you know what the point of the gospel is?
When Paul would go to a city to proclaim the ‘gospel’, do you know what usually occurred? What was the goal in the cities that Paul spent time in? According to our New Testament examples, how do you know if the gospel was received in a particular city?
Again Brett, I intend to answer your questions, but these are necessary questions to ask you in the process. You can answer all these questions at once, or you could take one set at a time. Whatever you think works best.
Also, this is off topic a bit, but you told me before that you were going to read a book by Frank Viola called ‘Reimaging Church’. Did you get a chance to finish that book yet? Just curious.
It is almost painful meditating on the facts you present here. My heart breaks for my generation. There have been many Holy Spirit ‘flare-ups’ but very few visions of Jesus himself. It is not a simple, easy thing to clear your mind and life of everything but Jesus and we all to often settle for a ‘graven image’ of him (i.e. youth groups, worship services, missions, outreach, or even a church as a whole.) How did we get so far from the obvious that living every waking moment for, with and in anticipation of Jesus is what Church is about?
I agree Jeremiah, good point. We have substituted religious things in place of an intimate relationship with Jesus. We have focused our eyes on what we can do to appear religious rather than put our eyes directly on Christ.
Jeremiah,
Thx for reading and commenting on the article. My heart also breaks for this generation as well. I heard a friend call the ‘flare-ups’ or ‘revivals’ that you speak of as ‘visitations’ of the Lord. During these temporary ‘visitations’, the Lord takes charge, and the human figureheads have to yield to Christ’s Headship. When Christ is leading, the whole body begins to function and testify of a living Christ. They begin to express themselves. This is what happens during these ‘temporary’ visitations.
Wouldn’t it be great if that could be the norm? This same friend goes on to say that God is looking for more than ‘visitation’ but habitation. He is looking to dwell with His people. When He dwells, He is Head, and His body comes out of paralysis and begins to function.
I am looking forward to Christ’s habitation here and now!
Bro…wow.
I’ve been having some of those similar thoughts–especially about “Buzzword” number 1.
.
So-called “disciple making” has become this “thing”, this “it” that seems to plague the church and make her into a business woman instead of a bride. It takes away here bridal attire and replaces it with a name tag, a brief case, and a fancy suit that knocks door-to-door looking to sell a product that she doesn’t even use! No wonder she feels so out of place, this isn’t her native occupation. Her native, natural occupation is sitting at the feet of Jesus Christ, loving and adoring Him. Then, because she’s so in love with Him, she may take a trip to the market or go see a movie where people can see and hear about her love for One, because all she does is talk about Him. Then others learn that they, too, can enjoy and know this Person which causes them to ask her questions. This is the most holy of all evangelism in my opinion. But again, we all have opinions
As followers of Christ, we are not to be clothing ourselves as CEOs and executives in a board meeting (i.e. Sunday worship), but instead we are to clothe ourselves with the love of Christ which only comes through intimate knowing and encounters with Him.
Thanks for writing this. I think you just inspired my next blog post.
Much Love in Christ,
Mike
Amen Michael.
Love your comment bro Michael, Amen!
Great thoughts Michael, you express my heart too! Amen!
Mike,
Thx for reading and great comment! I love the description of the woman who is in love with Christ taking a trip to the market or movie who then spreads her love for Him as she is going about her way. That is a great picture of the church and natural evangelism. I’m also glad that this inspired your next blog post as well. What you wrote is superb!
great read Jamal! Not sure if you are familiar with the cell church. Was an advocate of it many years ago until I saw what it was about. Sad to say but the “cell church movement,” a strategy/model to help the body of Christ become more relational, in a familial setting, with authentic community, is exactly that, a multi marketing pyramid scheme, a pyramid of “leaders.” Amazing how we make the organism of the body of Christ and make it into a business organization. If the body of Christ could see Christ alone as Head and only Source of life it would change many an ekklesia. Blessings brother!
John,
Brother, thx for reading and commenting. I am aware of the ‘cell’ church movement. I completely agree with your assessment of it. Unfortunately, many think that ‘cell’ church, or ‘small groups’ that can be typically found in most mega institutional church settings are synonamous with ‘organic’ church. This could not be further from the truth. What we are talking about is something entirely different altogether.
I appreciate you bro!
While I can agree with some of the things mentioned in the blog post, there are two unsubstantiated assumptions:
1. “The mission of God is the revelation and expression of His Son, Jesus Christ.” Who Says? The scripture quoted to support that statement does not. How can the mission of God be so narrowly defined? Isn’t it a bit arrogant to do so?
2.”Those who were separate individual disciples before Pentecost, are now grafted into Christ Himself and have become members of His very own body.” and negates individual discipleship.
Agreed we are members of His Body, but we are members (individuals still) “Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.” Ephesians 4:25
Being members of His Body does not negate being an individual in the body, nor does it negate Christ’s command to go and make disciples of individuals.
Miguel,
Brother, thx for reading and commenting on the blog. Thx for asking these questions. I have to be honest, I am a bit stunned by your first question. Actually, I cannot seem to move past it to address your other questions. Can we just stick to question #1 right now?
Do you really think that God’s mission that is all about the revelation and expression of God’s Son is a “narrow” mission and focus?
Seriously?
Do you know what every word of scripture is about? (I’d love to hear your response to this question brother)
So at first I had to laugh because I am starting to sell Norwex products … but when I saw the punchline I felt justified again. I just really like the products! Not the pursuit of getting other people to buy into it
.
But I think you have really hit the nail on the head here! There is SO MUCH to knowing Him and walking in Him … the life of Jesus living IN us … that to make our lives feel like we exist just to make other people convert is really off the mark. But that’s how I felt for so many years!
In fact, it was only recently that I had a life-changing revelation. I’d been told for years that you can’t turn people into projects – that you have to build relationships and see them as people not tasks. And I strove as hard as I could to do this. Only in the last few years did I realize what the big problem was: I saw MYSELF as a project-machine who was supposed to be out relating to people. Trouble is that doesn’t work. People relate to people.
Since realizing that, it’s been a good journey, stepping out into how He sees us and leaving behind all those expectations for fruit that “should” be born.
(It was a pleasure to have lunch with your wife on Sunday! We’d welcome both of you in San Antonio any time!)
Lisa,
Thx for reading and commenting here. Brandie had a great time with you guys. It truly is a small world:)
What you shared here is quite powerful, and very true. The key to not seeing others as projects, is not to see ourselves as projects! We are not simply a ‘project’ of the Lord. He treasures the relationship that He has with us. Thx for sharing.
Also, we’d love to come to San Antonio sometime. Thx for the invitation!
i loved hearing about this back when you visited with us, and i love how Christ brought it into fruition through you here. well done, written beautifully, brother. love you guys!! :]
Julie,
Thanks for reading and commenting here on the blog. As usual, it was a joy to talk with you and share these things with you guys in person. I miss that more than you know. Thx for reading and commenting. We love you too sister:)
Thank you for highlighting some of the points that are a vital part of the conversation concerning the restoration of Christ’s body.
Like any truth there is more than one aspect. For example if we were to look at the color yellow it is made up of green and blue. If the majority of people are versed in green and understand green and perhaps to a lopsided degree when someone comes along with an emphasis on blue it can cause a conflict. What I mean is to have a full perspective we need to see green and blue together in the proper perspective to see the whole of yellow. Spiritual truth is like that it usually comes down to a both and not an either or. Concerning being a disciple and individual follower of Jesus we are each just that but as you are pointing out that is only part of the picture and unless we see the whole picture we do injustice to the mission or God or we approach His mission from the perspective of green only. Jamal it may be helpful to clarify that point for those who feel like you are throwing out the one for the other. I believe to see the other side fully will help give a balanced view of the long held beliefs and let us see Christ together more fully.
Concerning the Amway analogy that was perfect way of describing the majority approach and thank you for highlighting the negative effect it has. I am from Grand Rapids, MI the home of Amway. There is a book I have called “The Spontaneous Spread of Home-Discipleship Christianity” and in the intro the author sites how he met the owner of Amway and modeled his whole approach of discipleship after it. So I would say you were right on the money with that one.
It is true that most Network Marketing companies and products go like wildfire through Church’s because of the ripe environment. I have seen this happen numerous times. It is usually with the same people and the idea of making all this money is tagged on with look how much can be done for the kingdom if we were successful. This is a non-spiritual approach that takes many forms in attempting to fulfill the purposes of God. Once we see fully that Christ is the full purpose of God and from Him flows all other things then we will begin to see the Life of Christ manifested in reality and all of the other stuff takes care of itself. After all as John wrote, “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.”
Seth,
Brother, what you have shared is wisdom! Thx for clarifying this vital point. I am certainly not trying to dismiss individual relationships, but certainly mean to grasp the bigger picture that is commonly missing in all the talk about ‘making disciples’.
I love and appreciate you bro! I hope to see you sometime in the near future. You should take a trip to Nashville and visit us if you are able.
Jamal,
A big AMEN! to this one, brother!
The reason we are so focused on “discipleship” is that we are so focused on the individual Christian life. We view everything through these spectacles and have no perspective on God’s view of the “Christian Life”. He, as you have said, only sees it from within the context of body life. The discipleship that we are so intensely chasing happens quite naturally within the context of the life of the Body of Christ. Instead of seeking “discipleship” we should be seeking to know and experience the living Christ from within His Body!
Thanks for sharing!
Brother Milt,
You said, “The reason we are so focused on “discipleship” is that we are so focused on the individual Christian life.” Of course that is a subjective conclusion and opinion, but I am curious as to how you arrive at that conclusion.
Secondly, you said, “Instead of seeking “discipleship” we should be seeking to know and experience the living Christ from within His Body!” Aren’t going, baptizing, and teaching all that Christ commanded imperative and active words? Therefore living life together is beautiful and necessary but many times passive in regard to encouraging and equipping the body. It doesn’t happen naturally, it’s super-natural and is transmitted via conducting ourselves in the manner we were instructed to which against our nature.
Milt,
Brother, you hit the nail on the head! I am very excited to be spending the next several months with you here in body life learning what this is all about! Thx for reading and commenting here on the blog.
So *this* is what you asked me to pray for you about on the phone. Lol. Good word. You’re like a sponge, bro. Really encouraging to see His fruit in your life.
Milt and I are planning on someday releasing a joint article called “The Network Marketing of the Church.” If we do, we’ll be sure to link to this post as it goes right along.
Keep up the good work!
Christ is ALL,
fv
Psalm 115:1
Frank,
Thx so much for your encouraging words here on the blog. I have greatly appreciated all that you have contributed to my life brother! I really hope you and Milt do write this article about the “Network Marketing Of The Church.” What you have to say about this subject is greatly needed today. Please let me know when that happens.
Love you brother,
Jamal
I struggle with the need to define, criticize and over amplify other believers opinions and offerigns of tools to help the
church, the bride of Christ fulfill it’s mandate to make disciples. I am not going to take a stand on whether these books are riddled with error, or the content of your post, or try to assess the validity of the range of experiences we have all had in church evangelism programs. I guess my question aims at a bigger dilemma I have been struggling with in our current age of the Church.
Why do we feel the need to pick apart God’s kids and point out the errors of symantics within the body? If they proclaim the name, we must realize that God is bigger than the “failure” of a perspective. Souls are the key, and though in many people’s opinion of the books, and the “negative” aspects of a networking of the gospel, is God not able to use even that to His glory? He never asked for us to be perfect in our delivery, but to be delivering. His Spirit convicts, sparks and ignites the passion for Christ in any man’s hearts. WE give ourselves way too much credit. We must deliver the message. Cultures shift and change, and we must meet the culture, shift it, and relase God’s heart into that culture.
When our focus becomes what other Christians are doing wrong, and doing right, we begin to lose the focus of our true calling to impact the world around us for Christ. When our focus is on the faults of God’s kids, we show the world that we are just like the world. Mercy triumphs over judgment, and they will know that we are His by how we love one another.
These are my personal ramblings, and I believe that God wants us to celebrate great victories, link arms and battle the enemy together. Are there teachers who are missing the mark? I dare you to find one who isn’t according to some other teacher somewhere else, and those who claim to be perfect in all their doctrine will have what CS Lewis called the greatest response we’ll see in Heaven, “Ohhh”.
Continue to proclaim His name, the name of Jesus!
Chris,
Thx for reading and commenting here. I appreciate your perspective. I understand that you think I am being overly critical of Platt’s ‘delivery’ style. You said that the important thing is this: “We must deliver the message.” I’m just curious as to what you would say the ‘message’ actually is?
You displayed the Gospel, (the person, message, and lifestyle) well with no disagreements from me at all.
I also don’t think that Mr. Platt would disagree with you either. We can use critical thinking and take any well intentioned book by any author and find gaps, errors and things that we would express differently. I never thought Platt’s book was intended to do what you wished it did or is as dangerous of a trap is it seems to be for you. (Thank God we all don’t have to have the same opinions for His grace to fill our hearts)
The methods of fulfilling Matthew 28′s Great Commission have changed from day 1. The end of the NT didn’t look like the beginning of it, and we have seen the history of the church change it’s methods often. Yes there is more, yes it goes deeper, but why would we proclaim failures in a method that is reaching thousands for Christ, and real people are coming in contact and into right relationship with Jesus Christ? Can we not say that God is able, capable and greater than any of man’s attempts or methods? Or can we only say that God should only work the way that we see it?
Chris,
This is more than a difference of ‘methods’. While our ‘methods’ may change, we must never allow our ‘methods’ to deny what is true about the person of Jesus Christ. When this occurs, the ‘methods’ become unbiblical and harmful. Our ‘methods’ should always communicate what is true about the person of Christ. The institutional ‘method’ that Platt is a part of is a result of a small vision of Jesus Christ. I wrote about this extensively.
Here is a link to an article that I wrote concerning our need to return to a New Testament vision of Jesus Christ. Please read this article. When you come to the end of the article, there will be a link to a second article as well. Please read that second article as well. I’d love to hear your thoughts. Here is the link:
http://t.co/QeBA2LO
Great Article Jamal.
I once was like David Platt in many ways. I saw many things wrong with American Christianity and sought to fix this through discipleship. I worked integrating traditional discipleship with community development with poor communities in Africa. Although it was communal and not merely individual, it was largely a multi-level marketing / educational method that blended remedies of poverty with spiritual truths. But as John Lennon once said, “I just had to let it go.” Discipleship is not a method; it is a shared life with the Master. For a long time I did this because I did not know any better. Than once I received a revelation and a taste of life, I got out of this as a career to pursue life, His life.
Anyhow, I see Platt as someone who is where I was, and it makes me hopeful that a great revelation could be forthcoming.
Steve,
Thx for commenting here brother. Your story is encouraging. The Lord really does know how to rescue us. I do hope Platt ends up understanding the good news that you have come to understand. Blessings to you on this journey!
THIS WAS AWESOME!
Thx for reading Gunnar!
Jamal, I have always enjoyed reading your articles. I have agreed with the main point of your writings, but have had trouble identifying missteps of my own as a member of His Body, to the point of at the end of each read I was asking myself ‘now what?’. You nailed it with this one; very clear and concise, as I read this I had no questions at the end, but rather a resounding ‘Yes! That’s it!’. Keep it up!
Kerry,
Thx for taking the time to read and comment. I appreciate your faithfulness to read the articles that are posted here on the illuminate blog. I am glad that this specific article made sense to you. Blessings!
This is my first read of your blogging, and it helped clarify a couple of things for me. I enjoyed your thoughtful approach to hashing out critical and timely spiritual issues and will continue to follow your writings with enthusiasm.
I was intrigued with your Q&A regarding the ultimate mission of God. Your belief that His mission is to reveal and express the Son, Jesus Christ, resonates within me. For we all will bow to His lordship. And then I couldn’t help but ask myself, “Why did God want this?” In other words, “What is the purpose in revealing Christ?” I suppose we could quickly answer, “To know God” or “To reconcile us to God.” And they would be true, but again, I asked myself, “Why? What’s His reason or mission?
The best I can see at this point is communion–sharing life; living the moment with Him and others. From creation to the 10 commandments to Christ to Revelation’s end of restoring heaven and earth and marriage of the bride, communion seems so central, so much the heart of God. This is one way I understand the Trinity–eternal communion, and He invites others to join Him or Them, as you wish.
As a counselor, of course I also asked what blocks communion between Christians and between them and God, especially in the IC? Well, it all led me to write and post a blog “Church: Sunday Morning Praise, Worship and Dissimulation” (cccrd.blogspot.com). The blog proposition is that the exodus of so many born-again Christians from the IC is, in part, related to dissimulation, which makes the IC seem irrelevant, impractical and to be missing the nurture and power of the Holy Spirit and leaves little room for genuine relationships and authentic community.
Thanks for the inspiration! Write on Jamal!
Frank,
Thx so much for reading and commenting. I appreciate what you have shared here. You bring up a vital point. Communion is what the Lord wants with His people. The Lord desires to dwell with us. Communion and dwelling together is a vital part of any marriage. Blessings to you, and I look forward to dialoguing with you in the future. Blessings!
Yes! After revelation (of Jesus)comes our response, which, if favorable, begins life–the personal relationship or communion with the King that will carry on into eternity.
On the nose again, Jamal! Echoing the voice of C. Spurgeon, the church has been sending out new recruits dressed like generals; it’s no better for our church’s babies to be having babies than it is for our twelve-year-olds. The power of testimony comes from having been through some fires and valleys and living to tell the lessons they’ve learned. If the spiritual elders of the body do not have powerful enough testimonies, and are not equipped to teach us how to operate in the Kingdom, it is a warning flag that we must be diligent to do our own spiritual development before taking responsibility of others’. What’s the point of winning them to the Kingdom if we don’t even really know what it is or how it works yet? I strained and struggled going from church to church to church looking for good mentorship, and each one came up lacking. If not for God’s strong call on me, I would have easily given up. Young generations can spot crap a mile away–they don’t stand for hypocrisy. So if you’re not able to “bring it,” after you preach it, time is a-wastin’. I’m tired of church corporations that care more about the people they don’t have than the ones they do. I don’t need yet another responsibility, I need the One who can take the weight off my shoulders! Rather ridiculous that I can get Him better from TV or the Internet than my local church…but thank God He’s found a way to fill in so we could get Him, unfiltered and un-interrupted.
I am so encouraged that the Spirit is leading us in the same direction. I’m going to cash in your raincheck this fall when I return to Brentwood–you’ve simply got to be there!
Michelle,
Thx for reading and commenting here. An important point to remember is this…our work is to rest and to eat. It’s pretty simple. Jesus Christ is Himself rest, and He is Himself our food. Resting and eating come natural for us. It is religion that seems to replace these two basic necessities of life with good projects in Christ’s name. It is a distraction.
Resting in Christ and consuming Christ (eating) can only be done as we enter into His life. Entering His life practically cannot be done individually only. Christ dwells in a body of many members. He lives in His body. If we are truly going to encounter Him fully, we will need to find Him where He dwells.
Jamal, I agree with so much of what you say here. Indeed, we are to be the expression of Christ on the earth. We are clothed with Him to express Him in all His fullness. I guess I would say that any discussion of God’s mission on the earth cannot leave out what the prophet Isaiah proclaimed (Isaiah 61) and Jesus repeated. This is how Jesus proclaimed the mission of God:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed; (Luke 4:18 NKJV)
What a beautiful thing that we get to fully express Him in His mission of expressing the Father’s heart.
Thanks for this truth-filled post.
Lisa,
Sister thx for reading this article and commenting here. I appreciate your heart!
Jamal, I love it when you write about Jesus; I am saddened when you write about other men, especially those who are breaking the traditional mold to honor the forthright declaring of the Word of God. I enjoy reading what your write, as I always love the challenging of thinking, and squaring up our thinking with the Word of God. I also love to listen to Platt’s messages (which are streamed on their website), because he is deeply committed to honoring the Word. I have never heard Platt one time use valuable teaching time to attack other folks who are seeking to obey God’s Word. After I listen to Platt’s messages, I am refreshed by God’s Spirit, challenged in my thinking, convicted of sin, more committed to live my life according to the Word, etc. His messages certainly make me love Jesus more. …as do yours, when you stick with Jesus, and not useless attacking of others.
Joe,
Thx for reading this post and commenting. I must say that I was pleasantly surprised to hear what you said here. You said this:
“I enjoy reading what you write, as I always love the challenging of thinking, and squaring up our thinking with the Word of God.”
Really? I had no idea that you felt this way about any article posted here on this blog. I think every comment that you have ever made here on this blog site has been you strongly letting me know how much you disagree with what I have shared.
I am not saying that you have never liked anything I have written here, I am just saying that I would never have imagined that I have said anything that encouraged you or challenged you in a good way. It seems that you have an easier time commenting on articles that you disagree with than the ones you agree with. Why is that? Which article on this blog have you agreed with, or which article on this blog challenged your thinking in a good way? I’m just curious:)
Guilty. Perhaps we all tend to write about what we disagree with rather than what we agree with. Seems like you did that with Platt too!
Joe,
One more thing…I know that you think that I was attacking David Platt in this article, but you should understand that there really is a difference between discussing ideas and issues, and personally attacking someone. I do not believe that I have attacked David Platt in any way.
I wrote an article about the difference between healthy debate and attacking someone’s character. There is a big difference between the two. I think it would be helpful if you read this article. Here is the title and link to the article:
Healthy Debate vs. Personal Attacks & Judgmentalism…what’s the difference? – http://goo.gl/C25I4
Jamal, I have read your articled (referenced) and re-read it, just to refresh my mind. But I would suggest that you read it again as well. Seems to me that you crossed your own line on several occasions; read your article, then read what you wrote about Platt. Sorry, I don’t have time to muddle through it all and go point-by-point. You gave Platt very little benefit of the doubt, and came to conclusions about what he believes which were not based on anything other than your assumptions. Just sayin’…..
Great post, Jamal!
From what I understand you say, we are to not go out to make disciples, but to dwell with the body of Christ and to dwell on His Gospel?
What about Romans 10:14-15 that says, “How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, ‘HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!’”? How is Christ’s body suppose to grow if we are just dwelling with our people and not “doing” what seems to be a command from Christ Himself?
Steven,
You have brought up a great point. Romans 10:14-15 is a great verse! Most people quote this verse without having any idea the context of the New Testament example that clearly demonstrates what this verse means. Let me explain:
Paul was an apostle who wrote letters to many different church communities. He is the one who wrote a letter to the church community in Rome that you quoted from. When Paul talks about being ‘sent’ out to ‘preach’, he knows what he is talking about. He was ‘sent’ out by an entire church body in Antioch to preach the mystery and gospel of Christ to the cities where he was ‘sent’. When he preached, it was for one reason that many today have NO grasp of.
When a group of people heard the mystery of Jesus Christ from Paul’s preaching, it was NOT simply so a group of individuals could make a decision to avoid going to hell, or so that they could be ‘saved’ to individually go out to make individual ‘disciples’; Rather it was so a specific group of people who heard and accepted the person of Christ would enter into community together and begin to live by Christ’s divine life TOGETHER, not simply as individuals. They all functioned together and began to express Jesus Christ with one another. This was how Jesus Christ was manifested in communities and cities in the New Testament.
Romans 10:14-15 is a description of how someone with an apostolic calling was sent out by a church body to preach the gospel (person of Christ) for the purpose of establishing Christ’s living body where Christ was preached. There were many apostles that did this in addition to the ones we typically think of. Barnabas, Timothy, even a female named Junias, are a few other apostles named in the New Testament that were ones ‘sent out’ to do this kind of work. This is a specific calling for specific people that have been ‘SENT’ by a church community as Romans 10:14-15 illustrates, and Paul’s own life example demonstrates. He was not speaking generically, or in a vacuum, but from his own experience.
The institutional church does not function this way today, so this example is completely foreign to most. As a result, when most read or teach from Romans 10:14-15, they water it down (as you have done in your comment above) to generically mean that everyone is individually sent to preach and make individual disciples so people can make a ‘decision’ for Christ so they don’t ‘go to hell’. This is NOT consistent with the example laid out in the New Testament.
Some are ‘sent out’ (apostolic calling) to preach Christ in a location for the purpose of seeing a Body of believers come together, live by Christ’s life, so that Christ will be expressed through their very lives TOGETHER as a community. This is what we see in the New Testament. This is the goal of Biblical ‘preaching’. This is also consistent with what I communicated in my article.
There is a huge need today to understand the whole context of scripture so we don’t lift a verse out here or there to justify an institutional paradigm that is itself inconsistent with the New Testament. I hope that makes sense. Thx for commenting brother:)
Thanks for tweeting this link to me via a Tony McCollum tweet. This is a LOT to read and digest. Although I have been “born again” for nearly 20 years, I am just recently opening my Bible and studying with a faith community that has amped my faith up to an incredible place. (God has also been hammering me a bit as well…) I appreciate your critical eye for both the bigger picture and the minutiae needed to look at the ideas in “Radical” and your willingness to send your observations out to the world. I look forward to reading your post over again and giving it some additional thought.
Thanks so much for reading this article. I am glad that it has stirred you to think. If you have any questions or comments after you reread the article, please feel free to jump into the conversation. Blessings:)
Wonderful! Praise God! Thank you!
Great post, Jamal! I have always found the missional church movement to have a disillusionment for me. How can one person show a person in the world who Christ is? How can they tell someone who Christ is?
Christ is a person! Not just a person, but He is many who are one. All the believers in a local area are Christ. They plus Christ equals all of Christ. No one who sees a kidney, toe, or ear is going to be able to envision or desire the whole person.
When we show people who Christ is individually we are showing them a kidney. Not very attractive. But when they see Christ as one, living through the Body then they will desire Him because they see Him in fullness. Reminds me of Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane.
Kaley,
Thx for reading and commenting here. You make a great point. This statement from your comment is quite profound in my opinion:
“No one who sees a kidney, toe, or ear is going to be able to envision or desire the whole person.”
I certainly desire that people would envision and desire the whole person of Jesus Christ, not just little sections of Him. He is big, and He is glorious!
The relationship and expression of Christ that comes through the connection and interaction between Christ’s Head, and His body parts (us) reminds me of how an Italian artist defined beauty. His statement about beauty is stunning and quite biblical as well. Here is what he said:
“Beauty is a summation of the parts working together in such a way that nothing needed to be added, taken away or altered” (Elio Carletti)
Thx for sharing your comment with us sister:)
Amen! He sure is… if only most of the saints could see Christ in the full as those in Acts and Corinth and Ephesians did they would desire Christ more than anything else.
Great quote! Mind if I use it for a blog I am working on?
You are welcome to quote anything you like:)
Jamal – grateful for the gift you have been given to communicate profound truth via practical simplicity. It is not a common gift, but a very necessary one for the American church.
I, too, am concerned about the heavy emphasis on “discipleship” and “gospel” as buzzwords that seem to indicate we are part of a particular club rather than the whole of the body of the Christ. It is my prayer that we would simply trust that what Jesus did is enough, that we would walk in love with Him and with one another, that we would be “Emmanuel” as His representatives to both neighbors and nations, and that we would see “on earth as it is in heaven” in our communities as Jesus is lifted up and displayed more and more.
The individualized approach of “disciple-making” is certainly antithetical to the new command Jesus gave. People will witness that we are learning and living His ways when they witness of loving one another deeply, sacrificially, unconditionally, graciously. We need each other in order to witness the love of Jesus among us as well as in order to take the love of Jesus to neighbors and nations.
May we be children of God who have been adopted into His family via belief in the One who came and took up residence among us.
May we then live as His family in the midst of the loneliness of our world so that others may witness our love and ultimately see His love.
May we make disciples of Jesus, not of ourselves.
May we embody and share the Gospel of Jesus, not of our methods.
And may we do this together as followers of Jesus who love like He loves.
“A new command I give to you. That you love one another as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
-John 13:34-35
Jason Dukes, it is good to hear your input as always and Jamal, Thank you for the insight and hopefully this thought provoking message on “Missional Confusion”!
Thx for reading Jason!
Jason,
Thx for reading and commenting here. What you said here is absolutely beautiful! You also have a gift of communicating Christ. I can see this gift here in your comment. I say Amen to the prayer you prayed here. Blessings brother:)
This article gave me a lot to think about… In a book called “3 Crucial Questions about Spiritual Warfare” there are two diagrams the author uses to show the difference between a Christ-focused believer and a ministry-focused believer. It really boils down to where your source of strength is coming from; is it coming from you or is it coming from Jesus? And can we really say we’re being as healthy and effective as we could be when all our strength is flowing from a limited resource (ourselves)?
Jesus said in Luke 12:29-31: “And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek hise kingdom, and these things will be added to you.” All the promises of God are YES in Jesus. He is complete and full, there is nothing lacking in him… but there can be so much lacking in our own efforts.
He’s yoke is so easy and His burden is so light. Let’s put on Jesus. There is full rest and joy and peace for all eternity there.
Thank you for sharing this. Retweet!
Ashley,
Thx for reading this, and for sharing the article! The things communicated here in this article will lead to a departure of ‘church life’ as we have known it, but the journey is quite worth it. I’m looking forward to dialoguing with you in the future. Blessings:)
I respectfully disagree with the conclusions of this article. You start out describing one undesirable extreme (of an all out Type A business model approach) using everyone’s aversion to the forced Amway MLM thing as analogous to what the book & author you are critiquing is advocating (I am unfamiliar with both, so am not sure about that). But then with very little Scriptural back up (and ignoring a huge amount of Scripture to the contrary) you swing the pendulum to another extreme (throwing the baby out with the bathwater) of a totally unstructured organic relational only Christianity, with no sense of responsibility or practical methodology allowed, regarding reaching others and developing Disciples (that will all just happen automatically, supernaturally when we all just focus on being in in-depth relationship with Jesus and one another). My experience, and the reality is, nothing much just happens when we don’t intentionally apply ourselves towards desired Biblical outcomes within Scriptural boundaries. The NT is replete with example and exhortation that the local Churches are to provide some practical leadership and structure in helping us learn and grow and be accountable to be good & profitable stewards (eg. Eph.4:11-16, etc). It also gives substantial examples of practical discipleship and small group ministry (like Jesus choosing 12 for special training/discipleship, and 2Tim.1:11-14 and 2:2), and it is full of examples and exhortation to deliberately go out to proclaim “the message” of the gospel, to compassionately seek the salvation of the lost (too many verses to cite). What you are advocating is an unbalanced exclusive focus on the Great Commandment relational aspect of Christianity (which I agree should not be neglected), which just gives us further excuse to cave in to our natural reluctance, and the spiritual-warfare resistance, towards getting involved in Great Commission outreach, and fulfilling our discipleship/stewardship (“missional”) responsibilities, that we should be burdened with and motivated about (out of our love for the Lord and neighbors). Anyway, that was my reaction to the article. I don’t mean to be unduly negative – I assume you were responding to an experience of the other cookie cutter extreme that you may have experienced, or just read about, and you are not a Type-A person (which I have also seen, and don’t track with either), and perhaps you just unwittingly reacted with an over-correction – but I have to disagree with that too. Oh well, it is good grist for the mill, to stir us up to think through these things more thoroughly to find the biblical balance.
Mike,
Thx so much for reading and taking the time to let me know your thoughts about the article. You have brought up a lot. Maybe we can address one thing at a time here. It’s hard for me to multi-task:)
First, I would like to address something you said in your comment. Here is what you said:
“with very little Scriptural back up (and ignoring a huge amount of Scripture to the contrary) you swing the pendulum to another extreme (throwing the baby out with the bathwater) of a totally unstructured organic relational only Christianity, with no sense of responsibility or practical methodology allowed, regarding reaching others and developing Disciples (that will all just happen automatically, supernaturally when we all just focus on being in in-depth relationship with Jesus and one another)”
I have to be honest and say that I strongly disagree with that statement. That is quite an assumption that you have made. To say that I am advocating for, in your words, “a totally unstructured” way of functioning in church life is an assumption that you have made in ignorance. I do not advocate any such thing.
I’m just curious, do you know what is meant by the term ‘organic’ church? Have you ever been a part of any such thing? Have you ever observed an ‘organic’ church function?
I’d love to know the answers to those questions. Thx Mike.
Hey Brother, I do concede my ignorance of you – I have never heard of you before (as I assume the same is true vice-versa), and I was only responding to what I perceived was being advocated in this one blog (of yours) that a friend posted on FB. Honestly I was not familiar with the Pastor/author or books you were referring to either, so yes I guess I don’t obviously understand your whole new paradigm. I don’t have time to read every new book or follow every new ecclesiological trend coming down the evangelical pike – that doesn’t mean I am ignorant though of the same Bible you have, or of the basics of its NT ecclesiology. So I dug a bit further to the links you had to your first critique of Platt, and then your link to Chan, and I learned a bit more of your journey from all that. I am still part of an “institutional” church (as you call it) and have been keeping busy serving the Lord as best as I know how through that, and no have not wandered around trying out the new experimental “church” movement you are in, but I guess I have interacted with some old friends that have been switching to that route. I am still not buying it though – although I realize I have not seen what structure you are actually advocating. But from the critique of Platt & Chan I had a few considerations. Sure you can point out problems of materialism and other aberrations in the NA Churches (and Christians) that need correction, but I think it goes to far to say we just need to abandon the whole thing and invalidate the ministries of so many faithful vocational ministers. Also just because the Chinese church thinks its funny how we operate, is not a good biblical reason that invalidates our contextualized situation. They have their church contextualized to their situation of having to operate underground with government persecution. Obviously in a different Nation/culture like ours, which has freedom and a greater measure of prosperity, we are free to develop things more openly. You could say similar things about the first century Church, which for one was just getting started (like Church planters usually start in their own living rooms, until their is sufficient people and resources to build) and they had to operate under the radar in a repressive/persecutive environment as well. But even so the NT is very clear about the appointing of elders as overseers, and the calling of Pastors and teachers as undershepherds of the Lord (like in Heb.13:17), and of various responsibilities that need to be carried out by leaders and churchs (which buildings and budgets and programs and such are just means to the ends of covering those bases). As I understand it, your movement is to de-emphasize any hierarchal leadership and official church programs and buildings and budgets and such. You say you are not intentionally being critical of Pastors like Platt, but in essence you are saying that they are part of a bogus institutionalization of Christianity and therefore there whole stewardship is invalid and illigitimate (unless they get out of it like you did). I think that is very presumptuous of you – it is one thing to say I want to try a fresh new approach to Church which I think would be a good way to do it. But it is quite another thing to say all other ways, besides my way, are wrongful ways. I came out of an RC Church upbringing which was very hierarchal and mechanically liturgical. Then as a young adult found Christ and His true body in evangelical churches (of various denominations) where-ever we’ve lived (the Lord has moved us around a bunch). Also I obtained both undergrad and grad degrees studying theology and Church history myself, and have been called to and involved in parachurch evangelistic missions work my whole adult life. To adopt what you are advocating we would have to say all the great examples and inspirations in missions and Church leadership we’ve seen or heard or read about, from ancient to modern (from Luther and the Wesleys and Charles Spurgeon, and Jonathan Edwards, and William Carey, and David Livingstone, and Adonirom Judson and Hudson Taylor, and DL Moody, and Billy Graham, and Chuck Swindoll and on and on and on, were all illigitimate purveyors of the bogus institutional Church). Nobody for umpteen centuries figured it all out until your movement came along just recently to get us all straightened out, or at least labelled as being old sticks in the mud. I don’t think that is a very charitable or humble position to take. Go ahead with your organic, simple house Church groups or whatever, as you like, but please stop trying to undermine other ministry forms that are on the same team with Jesus, as you are.
Mike,
Thx again for your reply. I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you are unaware of what I am referring to regarding the ‘organic’ church. I appreciate that.
I do believe that you have made another huge mistaken assumption in your latest comment, however. You made the assumption that the church which exists outside of the institution is something ‘new’ and ‘experimental’. That is simply not correct at all. If you study church history, you will see that this is nothing new.
If you are interested in learning a bit more about church history, I would like to ask you to listen to an audio message about a group that existed outside of the institution hundreds of years ago. They paid a dear price for it as well. Although they had no label for themselves, they were called the ‘anabaptists’. There is a lot of misinformation about them, but their history is stunning. You should listen to this message, and you will see that what I am talking about is certainly NOT anything new or ‘experimental’. Here is the link to the article that I wrote about this that also contains a link to the audio message. Let me know your thoughts after you listen to the message:
Who’s Trying To Kill You? (important msg from Jon Zens about the Anabaptists) – http://goo.gl/lvcp4
Mike,
The second point that I would like to bring up here regarding your latest comment has to do with the assumption that you made regarding Biblical leadership being hierarcical. I would have to strongly disagree with that assumption. True Biblical leadership is not hierarcical at all. I know that might be shocking for you to hear, but it’s true.
Many passages of scripture have either been badly translated, or have been severely twisted and manipulated to make it seem like leadership in the body of Christ is hierarcical. A common verse that is incorrectly translated to teach such a concept is Hebrews 13:17. It is interesting that you actually made reference to that verse in your comment above because I actually wrote an entire article that illustrates just how badly that verse has been mistranslated and abused to teach the opposite of what that passage of scripture actually communicates. When you get a few minutes, please read the article I wrote about Hebrews 13:17. Please do not skip over this, or ignore this. There are implications that we really need to consider. Here is the title and link to the article:
Parenting Adults Is Harder & Why Your ‘Pastor’ May Not Really Be Your ‘Pastor’ – http://goo.gl/U80tI
Jamal allow me to quickly respond to both of your last two replies here – I went to both of your links and listened to portions of the audio on the Anabaptists (though honestly I am running out of time for continuing in this conversation, given other priorities I have). I was/am familiar with the history of the Anabaptists, though I had to brush up on it a bit again (as I dont have a photographic memory of all things I have studied in the past). I do believe they helped take the Reformation to a higher level that was needed (though they were not perfect in all ways themselves). I believe I have already become a part of their heritage where I am at already. As I mentioned before I became a true modern day Protestant myself when I discovered the gospel in college and then left the RC Church over it. I also became re-baptised with believers baptism, and I believe in the separation of Church & State, and other etc distinctives of theirs. Similarly I don’t totally discount the validity of some of your concerns and teachings, but like I don’t believe the Anabaptists got everything right either, I have to disagree with some of your conclusions and commitments as well. Also applicable is what I already mentioned about the Chinese church context – the Anabaptists (because of singular denominational theocratic type control of governments in their case) had to operate largely underground as a persecuted movement, which contextually shaped the development of how they did Church. I can agree with Zens that the Constantinianism that mixed Church and State is wrong, and that that wrongly carried over into the initial Reformation Protestant groups, and they mistakenly/unchristianly persecuted some detractors too (although to a much lesser extent than the RCC), but that is a different issue than Church polity (ecclesiology) seperated from State now. When the groups now considered the succesors of the Anabaptists (Mennonites, etc, including later developments of Baptist and other Baptistic Bible denominations) immigrated to America and gained freedom, then they did develop more organization and employ the use of buildings etc, which is not some kind of anti-biblical evil in and of itself. I too am thankful for the Reformational recovery of the concept of the Priesthood of all believers and our direct access to God and personal (Holy Spirit) illumination to understand the Scriptures and operate under Sola Scriptura (though I argue now that no Christian operates exclusively by that, as we all are reading and hearing Christian voices outside the Scriptures and quoting them to back up our thinking – so I believe it is more accurate to say we go by what I have coined as Scriptura Ultima – that after sifting through what other Christians have to say, the Bible is still the Ultimate authority and last word to go by in our stewardship accountability to God). That is why after sifting what you have to say I am still convinced you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater of some fundamentalist and evangelical abuses and excesses of authority that you can rightly point out. I was not advocating the Heb.13 excessive authority that you cogently spoke of. I merely cited that passage in favor of the fact that the NT does prescribe and identify certain people as official leaders within the Church, who interestingly are expected to provide…..LEadership (go figure). That can mean a lot of things, but like coaches of a sports team (as just a familiar example) they are supposed to set up and direct a program for the accomplishing of the goals of a team (and that can include building facilities to accommodate things, but I suppose you can operate some sports without official facilities and coaches. It seems in that parlance like you just want to play pick-up Christianity using other peoples facilities and without any formal coaching.
I appreciated your view of the switch necessary in parenting our kids as they get closer to, and into, adulthood, but it seems you over apply that example to reach you conclusions about abandoning Church leadership and “institutional” church set ups. Just because your kids grow up doesn’t mean that now you should abandon the “institution” of the family, and even you pointed out it just affects your style of leadership as a father, and does not cancel out your position as a leadership influence in your adult-children’s lives. Interestingly Eph.4:11-16 speaks of Christ’s appointing of “Pastors” as well as evangelists and teachers as necessary for the equipping of the saints so they can do ministry too, and so that they grow up from spiritual childhood (and not be swayed by every new wind of doctrine) and maturely start taking their place and doing their part in building up the body of Christ (which seems contradictory to start advocating as you seem to, to throw the Pastors and other leaders out). I agree that Church leadership is not supposed to be authoritarian and hierarchal (as I experienced in the RCC where leaders say they are to be obeyed as Christ’s representative) – but my understanding was that Pastors (like Husbands in a marriage) are supposed to be servant-leaders, who are to preach/teach the word and exhort/encourage its applications to life, and provide a good balanced/mature example of living it out, and not to personally police everything that church members are doing.
I hear you about how in bigger Churches that Pastors become almost too far removed from any personal relationship with many members, but as with any believer their function is a limited one at best (even in a smaller more intimate Church setting) and other functions of personal friendship and mentoring for any member needs to be done by others. But that is what seems to be advocated by passages like Eph.4 and 2Tim.1:11-14 and 2:2, that Church leaders need to multiply their ministry by equipping more people to help in the ministry of more leaders and other giftings of the saints. So I don’t agree with your (or some of your supporters) contention with big Churches developing a cell/small group extension of leadership to bring the pastoral mentoring and accountability relationship to a more personal level, like you said it needs to be (and that does not negate the benefits of larger group preaching and teaching ministries – they are complimentary).
Well that is my feedback. I have friends who left an “institutional” evangelical church (and certainly could find plenty of imperfections as justification) and organized with friends a home church with no official leadership. They would just get together and each bring something to share. I had moved out of the area and was just hearing of it from afar and it did seems rather like an idealic way of doing things…at first. Then the inevitable happened – they weren’t perfect either. There was no quality control of doctrine, so if something disagreeable was said, then suddenly the atmosphere is awkward. Then different people have different ideas about how we ought to pool offerings to go to different things – ultimately that becomes very individualistic. Human nature start taking its toll. And are not believers (and Christianity per se) suppose to be reaching out and drawing in new comers? Why yes – but that ends up ruining the group dynamic you started with as a group of already friends, especially when the group becomes so large you now need to divide into a couple of groups. Then their are sin problems that arise, and other controversies, etc etc etc, and things become messy. I concede that happens in “institutional” churches too, but lets not kid ourselves that your “organic” church model is going to be all idealically wonderful and keep above all such messiness. No , and it occurred to me as I thought it through, that the same kinds of personality clashes and human barriers and such will still manifest themselves. Their are Christians I have met through all kinds of settings, to whom I am invisible. People whom I know as generally being well motivated Christians generally, but for some reason would not give me the time of day – seemingly avoiding me like the plague. I know of nothing I have ever said or done them wrong, but I just do not register on their radar, or they seem to just have a natural reactive aversion to being around me. Just to be clear I am a generally likeable guy and carry on friendly relations with many people around them, and try to with them (and try to apply the love your enemies, and love covers a multitude of sins,approach) – I don’t know if it their level of spirituality of personality or a mix but that is just the way it is. I have come across a few of these types where-ever we have gone (as I said priorly, the Lord has moved us around a bunch). My wife is the most wonderful personaility and spirituality person you could ever meet, and yet she has been stonewalled by some of these same types as well, and we scratch our heads together wondering what is going on with such people, and resolving to endeavor to not be likewise so insensitive to others. Anyway I bring that up to say that people may gravitate to your new idealic seeming paradigm after enduriong some similar slights and offenses in an “institutional” church setting. But I can pretty much guarentee that they are going to run into the very same human short-comings along the way, in your “organic” church settings as well. Whatever church setting we are in, it is going to take some real tough skin on top of a soft & pure heart, to persevere over a long haul with any group of imperfect Christians (and that includes us all).
By the way, just so you understand, just because we disagree, I think your situation is different from the Anabaptists because no evangelical (or other Church for that matter) is persecuting you, and I don’t condemn you. I don’t agree that that is the best balance of Scripture or your Christian Stewardship, but I can affirm you as a brother-believer in the gospel & Christ, and as such we will each stand and give an account to our Master. I don’t think your throw the baby out with the bathwater approach will fare well, but then again I will probably suffer the burning of some wood, hay and stubble stuff myself – but thankfully our salvation is not dependent on, or affected by that (1Cor.3:11-15).
At this point I must bow out of this conversation and move on to other things that I have stolen away time from for this. Farewell, Mike
Jamal,
I just finished your review and all of the comments on “Radical”. I also just read your “non-review” on Radical Together, however I only read a few of the additional comments and posts. So if I have repeated something above please forgive me. I agree with your concept, I to do not see the institution of the church in the NT, however what do we do with the scriptures that speak of Elders, such as I Tim 5:17 and throughout Acts and many other places. It seems as though there was leadership and some hierarchy.
I have been doing/leading what we have called “Community” for the past 4 years. along with going to the institution on Sundays. However it has been no different in our community than the “Big Box”. Maybe it is me and how I am leading (probably) but I am not sure what to do. I so want others to see Christ as I do. The central focus of all parts of my life. I display Him in example in many ways, I speak Him in many ways, I teach Him from the Bible, I pray for them, but they just fill a seat. No real change other than making advances socially. I have been cotemplating taking a few men to “disciple” through the Gospel of the entire Bible, seeing Christ from Genesis to Revelation. Then having them disciple their familys first then other men to do the same. I understand that the Body is not individual, but where else do you start except for a few that want to follow after Christ? I know it sounds like I am dumping. But I truly want to follow Christ and bring others alonside of me to do the same. However I am not sure of the most effective method.
Thanks,
Mike,
Thx so much for taking the time to read my review of Radical and also this latest article. I know what you are going through completely. I have a couple of thoughts for you in regards to your comment.
1. Elders and leaders are certainly a part of New Testament church life, but true New Testament leadership is absolutely NOT hierarcical at all. While the world’s understanding of leadership is certainly based on hierarchy, in Christ, leadership is the opposite. We have a hard time understanding this because we still have an institutional understanding of leadership. Many have never seen anything different. I wrote an article about New Testament church leadership that might be helpful for you to read. Here is the title and link:
Parenting Adults Is Harder & Why Your ‘Pastor’ May Not Really Be Your ‘Pastor’ – http://goo.gl/U80tI
2. Regarding your experience of meeting outside of the institution…there is a reason that you have not seen any difference between your community group and the institution. The reality is, you have not been equipped for organic church life. Scripture is clear, the saints need to be equipped. The institution is incapable of equipping us to function under Christ’s headship, and by His life. While we may leave the ‘institution’, the institution has not left us no matter how much we think it has. It is hard to labor for something we have never seen or experienced. This is why we need the help of those who have been down this road before. Basically speaking, we need to detox a lot of what we have learned and experienced. I really cannot begin to express to you just how important this is. If this ‘detox’ doesn’t happen, then we will unintentionally create a smaller version of the institution in our home. There is nothing ‘magical’ about meeting in a home. It is easy to recreate smaller institutions in our homes because it’s all we have ever known. A New Testament church community is completely different than anything we have seen in our institutions, however. Before we try to ‘start’ something, we really need to be detoxed and equipped to function under Christ’s headship. Paul spent several years learning to function simply as a brother (not a leader) in the church at Antioch before being sent out. This is a lengthy and involved project.
I’m curious Mike, have you ever read ‘Reimagining Church’, or ‘Finding Organic Church’ by Frank Viola?
Jamal,
Ok, so you say New Testament leadership is absolutely NOT hierarcical at all. I am not here to argue, because I am truly wanting to understand how we as believers are to gather. So this is duscussion. No, I do not beleive that there should be a hierarchy like one is better qualified to here from God than others. However when you have 20 – 30 people let alone 50, 100 or 1000′s and try to get a consensus on what to do where to give who or how to serve or what to study etc. it is impossible to get one idea. I mentioned some scripture last time but let’s take one in particular; 1 peter 5: 1-5. Elders are to sherpherd the flock. So in an Organic church is there still a shepherd? And if so is that not leadership? And if not, I do not believe that to be biblical. Is a new convert on equal teching grounds as someone in your local body that has study the scriptures for much longer. Does the new convert teach those more mature in Christ? Isn’t that still somewhat hierarchial
I agree compleely with the concept of getting rid of the typical Americanized church. I agree with following Christ and Christ alone, seeking righteousness, focusing on Christ rather than focusing on our sin. I just don’t see how biblically you have a gathering of the saints with out a shepherd.
I did read your article on detox. I think I have detoxed (maybe not). I am ready for change in my life and for my family. Our church has been really trying to find the path of what church really looks like and I have been doing the same even when they seem to get stuck in the muck of how do you turn a cruise ship 90 degrees instantly. My problem is how does it play out in reality and keeping it scriptural.
I guess that is it for now. I am sure their will be more to come.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike,
Sorry that it has taken me so long to respond to your comment. I wanted to speak to one particular statement that you made in your comment. You said that it is impossible to get 20-30 people to come to consensus, let alone 50-100, or 1000′s.
I understand why you would say that. Humanly speaking, it is impossible. This is exactly why people come up with man made structures and processes that make decision making humanly possible. There is a better way, however.
Personally, I have seen the Lord give an entire group of people the mind of Christ! It is truly supernatural because everyone, in their flesh, has their own agendas and ideas. The flesh has to die, however. When we die, His life comes forth. This does not happen over night. We have not been equipped by the institution to live this way. It takes time for a ‘organic’ church community to be ready for this. It takes equipping as the scriptures say. When the body has been equipped, however, the church body can certainly make decisions by consensus because they have the mind of Christ!
Again, have you ever read ‘Finding Organic Church’ by Frank Viola?
Mike,
I wrote an article about our need to be ‘detoxed’ from the religious system a while back. I think this is something important for you to consider at this point in your journey. Read this when you get a chance. Here is the title and link to the article:
Myself, Heroin Addiction, & The Church – http://goo.gl/4OQ9A
Sorry Jamal, I forgot to give the conclusion about my friends who took their family out of the “institutional” church into an organic home church type thing. They left the institutional church because of various messiness stuff they finally got tired of, but then as they eventually encountered much human messiness in their organic church, they finally realized it was not the idealistic thing it promised to be, and they decided to join a different institutional church again. They concluded that despite the normal messiness that would also be there, that there were checks and balances in place, and that people and programs were organized in a helpful way to meet needs and bless their kids and themselves, and there were opportunities for them to apply themselves and their giftings in ministry there. Also though they did have official Pastors, none of them were trying to dominate or control their personal life in any kind of authoritarian way, but rather were just giving the ministry of the word, exhorting & encouraging it’s application, and trying to live out a good example of such themselves (for people to follow their example). Also such leaders were available for personal counsel when needed/requested, and for other important functions related to their family lives. So I don’t see how that translates to the kind of bogus institutionalism that you are declaring to be invalid.
Mike,
Thx again for the dialogue, Let me say a couple of things:
1. Organic church life is MUCH messier than institution life. In the institution, people are not truly able to be built together in community. The system is simply not conducive for this. When people are truly built together, you get to know one another deeply. People’s flesh gets exposed. If the group has been equipped to live by Christ’s divine life, then the flesh will get taken to the cross and corporate resurrection life is the result. It is truly supernatural, and it is glorious. Death must take place however. This is foreign in the institution. In the institution, groups of people don’t have to come to consensus and lay a hold of the Lord’s mind together, rather they just show up at church events, listen to people on a stage, and do what they are told. I know that may seem like over simplification, but I have spent years in the institutional church world both as a lay person, and as a ‘Pastor’. I have some experience with institutional church life. I also have some experience outside of institutional church life. I’m curious Mike, have you ever spent any time in an ‘organic’ church community being built together with other believers?
2. ‘Organic’ (New Testament) church life absolutely does have leadership. Yes, shepherding (pastoring) absolutely does occur in this setting. It is natural. It is NOT based on title, and it does not require that the ‘congregation’ become passive participants as they are in the institution.
3. Most groups that call themselves ‘organic’ churches are anything but that. Many times, these groups have not been equipped to function with Christ being the Head, and many have not been built on a New Testament vision of Jesus Christ. Most of these groups are made up of people who have been turned off by the institution and are looking for something different. Just because people leave the ‘institution’ does not mean that the ‘institution’ has left them. Many times these groups are no more than smaller versions of the ‘institution’ or glorified Bible studies meeting in a living room. True New Testament (organic) church life is much different.
Mike,
Here is a link to an article written by a brother who has been a part of an organic church body for the last couple of years. This is his description of ‘organic’ church life. I really think it could help answer some of your questions. This article is coming from his firsthand experience in ‘organic’ church life. Don’t skip over this. Take the time to read this article. It’s one of the best descriptions of organic church life that I have read. Here is the link:
http://xpchrist.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/expressing-christ-in-organic-church/
I appreciate everyone’s opinion. However its no ones right to review nor judge what others are doing for Christ. I will participate in anything that helps me be more focused and engaged in studying Gods word and helping others in the process. I do not buy into the whole church pyramid scheme theory
Christopher,
Thx so much for reading this article and commenting here. Let me add this to your comment. There is a major difference between the healthy examination of ideas, messages, and values, and unhealthy debate that engages in personal attacks and character judgements.
This article was written for the purpose of healthy debate and discourse about things that are being taught publicly. These things have monumental importance to the Body of Christ. They absolutely should be discussed.
I actually wrote an article that examines the difference between healthy debate, and unhealthy debate. I think you might be interested in reading this article. Here is the title and link:
Healthy Debate vs. Personal Attacks & Judgmentalism…what’s the difference? – http://goo.gl/C25I4
Sorry, but I don’t see the connection between a pyramid scheme and Radical. A pyramid scheme is driven by greed and getting “ahead”, and Radical’s mission of putting others first. I think Platt is the antithesis of a pyramid scheme. That’s just me though.
The prosperity gospel might be a better analogy to a pyramid scheme.
This poses a lot a good questions, although laced with assumptions and perceived judgement. I am curious how this looks in a practical sense. I think this method of thinking about the church is so reductive. I don’t understand why everyone feels the need for others to participate in the kingdom in the exact same way as everyone else. Aren’t we all image-bearers? Cant everything done for His namesake bring Him glory and appear as an outward expression of the Gospel, Christ Jesus? I just think we all ought to champion His cause and make His name known to everyone. The two commands and the great Comission seem fairly simple when you love the Lord and are guided by the spirit. What do you do, or how have you advanced the Kingdom of the Jesus you so desperately want to express?
Billy,
Thx for reading the article, and posting your comment. Welcome to the blog!
Before I can adequately address your potential questions, I need to make sure I understand what it is you are asking. There are a couple of points in your comment that I need some clarification on:
1. Can you please explain what you mean when you say: “I think this method of thinking about the church is so reductive.”
What is ‘this method of thinking’? What do you mean by ‘reductive’?
2. This statement that you made in your comment is also quite confusing: “I don’t understand why everyone feels the need for others to participate in the kingdom in the exact same way as everyone else.”
Who is ‘everyone’, and what would give you the idea that this article is calling for everyone to participate in the kingdom in the exact same way?
If you could bring some clarity on those points of confusion, that might help me address your questions. Thx.
Jamal,
I have read many of your posts and many comment sections. You are a gifted thinker and writer. Because of that, it’s bothersome to me that at infrequent times when someone questions you just a little bit, you don’t answer them but ask them challenging questions right back. I think many of your readers’ questions are legitimate and don’t need to be “answered” with questions. I think you are better than that.
With that, I love the book Radical. I love the book Crazy Love. I love “doing” things for the Lord. I love sharing the Gospel with the lost, and seeing them receive The Truth and trust in Christ. I love praying with people. Obviously, that’s not 100% of the Christian life, but it is a part of it. Worshiping God, listening to Him, studying His Word … all important.
I don’t lead souls to Christ and disciple them to get God to love me or bless me. He already loves all of us completely. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). No, I do it because I love God and love others and want them to know Christ in this life and the life to come (and yes, to be rescued from hell – Jude 23).
Christ came to seek and to save the lost. It is His will then none would perish. The type of evangelism you trivialize is worthy, rewarding (to both the soulwinner and the lost), and our commission from God.
I’ve never known of anyone who has merely watched my life (I try to live Godly before God and man) and wanted to be a Christian. And I don’t do things like sing songs to the Lord in the supermarket that attracts people to come over and want to know what it is that makes me sing. No, I believe speaking the Word of Life to the lost is necessary.
Paul was “under obligation” (Romans 1:14 ESV) to the lost. The body of Christ should consider itself likewise.
That the world may know Him, I am Radical for Christ.
John 3:16-17
John I concur with you about living for the Lord Jesus Christ!! The thing I have a problem with Radical is that Platt confuses salvation (justification) with sanctification (the growth that the Holy Spirit is responsible for). The thing that Christians also need to realize is the “tinge” of pride when we look at ourselves and think “Why can’t someone be like me- I am living for Christ- giving to the poor, evangelizing, making disciples, etc.?” Everyone has their weaknesses and sins; everyone has their gifts and strengths- one may not be an evangelist, but will be a wonderful mercy giver; one may not be a teacher, but be a servant, and so on.
What we see in many of the “Christian” books out there today are looking for perfection, not resting in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit to work in us. I know that in my life I have never done anything, whether my anger or pride- it was the work of the Holy Spirit that started conforming me to the likeness of Jesus Christ. I am totally dependent on Him- for remember Paul stated “when I am weak, I am strong.” I feel Davids Platts books are based on his own opinions not basically accurate with Scripture. I will take Scripture over books any day.
Faith, you make some great points! Thx for dropping by the blog and commenting:)
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:14-26 NIV)
As Christ followers, we are called to “do” to accompany our faith. You mentioned me on twitter in response to a comment I made about the verge conference. We have a God that told us to go and make disciples and a God that desires none to perish. Eternity is a long time and I would rather be wrong in trying to reach people for Christ with my “amway” gospel than get to heaven and try and explain why I sat back and did nothing while my friends and family lived their own lives. Expressing Christ is good (although I’m not sure what you are referring to and how that presents itself in the church) but it sounds to me like you are abanonding the very example Christ gave us…. Love God and love others. Our selves should come dead last and while I’m glad you feel like you are able to express Christ at church, I feel like you are missing the point of what Christ lived and died for.
From my perspective the “doing” in the mega church environment was in bringing in the “unchurched”. The focus was “growing the church” and by doing that we were supposedly growing disciples of Christ.
(The actual truth is we were luring sheep with our better programs from other denominations)
As a side note: I never did understand the “unchurched” focus. Did we not want people to know Christ and what difference did it make what Body of Christ they found fellowship when saved?
But the truth was that bringing people in was really about perpetuating, maintaining and growing the system that had been created. Every single issue revolved around the image or ‘brand’ of the institution. Not the people in it.
Quite possible the most succinct, sound, and substantial presentation of what the Gospel is, and is not.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ.
As the body prepares as His bride, His house, and His family we cannot afford to not seek and experience the fullness of this amazing, artistic, imaginative, powerful, and creative Christ of ours.
Thank you my brother for you and the gifts that you share that in turn help edify, and encourage the “called out ones” His Church.
Hi Jamal. I am finally done reading this message on the “real” Gospel. I don’t know how I missed this one. It’s very good and I tell you, everytime I read any one of your messages, I feel God is showing me the truth more and more. It’s weird, but I have experienced so many levels of this message in my walk and experience with the Lord, but then I’ve also had so much “conflicting” teaching that has really confused me and left me focussed on the flesh, and all I don’t do enough of!! I started out as a Lutheran getting filled with the Spirit (or whatever you want to call it…), finally, which I had hungered for, for so many years. And those first years of just God and I were more rewarding and precious than I can explain. And the church I was going to was also good….it did not teach strong doctrines that were so controversial, rather, they just worshipped God and let it flow from there. That’s where I gained a freedom in Christ, at that time, that I have never had since. Then I moved to Columbus to attend World Harvest Bible College, because they seemed so “on fire” and passionate for God and had such a strong missional focus which I craved….but I found out it led me deeper in religion in alot of ways, and bound me up, taking away my freedom which I had so wonderfully experienced before then. I learnded alot there, and there were precious times with Jesus, but I left there so discouraged and feeling like a failure. I could never beging to do what they asked of us and said was our mission from God!! This started my decent into more depression and anxiety. I wondered if all the beauty I experienced in Christ before then, was just a period of time that was too good to be true. Now I must start really working hard to fulfill what God had called me to. But I have found out in the last several years, that I can’t!! That it’s not about what I can do, but all those years before, when God so lovingly revealed to me His purposes, that were easy and light, and not dependent upon me, but based on a deep intimacy with Him and wanting only to glorify Him, and the light in me shined so brightly and easily without any help of mine, but just because He was in me, and I had a beautiful body of Christ around me that only helped make that expression real. I realized I hadn’t imagined that time of precious intimacy and revelation of Jesus, but that was of Him, and He wanted to build upon that, keeping me in freedom, not bondage by the Church. Anyway, through much discouragement, I believe I grew up so much, that all the struggle was beneficial, not that He willed it, but He makes all things work together for good to those who are called according to His purpose, which I humbly, yet confident in Him only, pray that I am one of those. And I realize more and more, that it is not what we do but Who He is in us. We are so weak, but He is so strong! We are nothing, but He is everything! And we are only part of the whole picture, which is the body of Christ….we cannot function without each other….. we are all equally necessary for the whole in order to function. There has been way to much emphasis in the Church, on us individually. What a snare. I understand the beauty of each one functioning together in a meeting. It is amazing, I can’t begin to explain how wonderful it is. How real, how effective….how much we grow and mature through that style of a meeting. I could go on and on about the beautiful body of Christ. Anyway, to make a long story short, I know that if we are not functioning in truth as the real body of Christ, then those around us are not going to get it, and be affected, because we are being fake (innocently as that mwy be).
Great article, Jamal–I just stumbled onto it. Message is very similar to what I share in my book, What’s Wrong with Outreach. It’s the bait-and-switch that gets to me–unconditional love and acceptance morphed into an obligation to become an extroverted promoter of the Gospel. And it’s not backed up by scripture.
Also love the fact that you bring up giftedness and the body. Most of the problem involves people wanting everyone to become the same sort of person that they themselves are, when the biblical message is exactly the opposite – we are supposed to be different, but work together.
Keith,
Thanks for reading and sharing your comment. Well said. Thanks for mentioning your book as well. Do you have a link to a website about your book? I’d love to take a look at it.
Also, if you’d like, feel free to subscribe to the blog by email. It would be great to have you participate in the dialogue on future articles posted here.
The page for my book is http://www.schooleyfiles.com/p/blog-page.html. And thanks for the invite to subscribe. I just subscribed to your twitter feed. I’m glad I stumbled on your blog! I look forward to participating in the discussion in the future.