One of the privileges of blogging is the ability to introduce subjects and people of great significance to the body of Christ. I am excited to introduce a dear saint to you today that I wish everyone could come to know.
Milt Rodriguez
Milt Rodriguez has become a dear friend of mine. His life has had a deep impact on me, not necessarily because of what he does (although he does a lot), but simply because of who he is in Christ. I truly wish everyone I know would have the ability to spend some face to face time with Milt. He is a jewel in the kingdom that leaves all who know him with a greater love and vision of Jesus Christ.
The church family I am a part of recently had the privilege of spending about 5 months of ‘face to face’ time with Milt and Mary Rodriguez. They were like ‘chefs’ to us. They served us a meal that none of us knew how much we really needed. The ‘meal’ they served the church here built up the body in ways that I could have never imagined. Simply put, we have witnessed a ‘planting’ of a group of people around nothing other than the person of Jesus Christ. It is a dream come true to say the least.
I have asked Milt to come on the blog today to answer a few questions that I believe could greatly benefit all those who are thinking through and exploring jumping into New Testament church life. So without further delay, let’s jump into this conversation with Milt!
Milt, you and Mary came to know Christ during a unique time period. Could you describe a bit about what the culture was like and the type of things you experienced during the ‘Jesus Movement’ of the late 1960′s and 1970′s?
Yes. My wife (Mary) and I came to Christ when we were both twenty years old. This was in the early seventies (oh, oh – aging myself!) during what was called the “Jesus People Movement.” It was definitely a unique time. Many of the young people in my generation were involved with what was called the “hippie movement.”
Many from this generation were saved during that movement. It seems like people were coming to Christ everywhere! There was a lot of organic church life happening as well. We had no idea what we were doing but there was lots of community and the focus was Jesus. Hence the term “Jesus People.” Things didn’t get very deep, but we were very sincere and passionate about the Lord and learning to love one another.
What is your assessment of what went wrong with the ‘Jesus Movement’?
Like they say: “hindsight is 20/20.” Looking back at the movement I believe it’s very clear what went wrong. Two things mainly:
One, there were two other movements that happened right after the “Jesus People Movement.” One was the “Discipleship/Shepherding Movement.” The other was the “Charismatic Movement.”
The discipleship-shepherding movement became very authoritarian and all about top down, chain-of-command authority structure and discipleship.
The charismatic movement was naturally all about spiritual gifts, miracles, healing, etc.
Now there were two major differences between these two later movements and the “Jesus People Movement.” One is that they came out of the institutional church. The Jesus People Movement came as a grass-roots, street-level movement. The other difference is that these two movements were about “things,” not about Christ Himself. But they were a distraction to many of the Jesus People at the time.
The other problem was that most of us in the Jesus Movement were very young and naïve, in a sense. So we were searching for older, move experienced believers to guide us. Well, the older people came alright. And they brought their agendas and institutionalism with them. We needed mature outside help, but instead we got religion and domination!
What led you out of the institution and back to a pursuit of your roots?
After the Jesus People Movement ended we (like most) just naturally went into institutional churches for the next 15 years. But we never forgot our first two years in the Lord. There was real life in the church then. So, the Lord used that hunger to lead us out of institutionalism to a more authentic expression of His church. Of course this took years of trying many things, reading many books, and finally belonging to an intentional organic community of believers.
In your own words, how would you define a New Testament ‘organic church’?
My quick definition is: “a group of believers who are learning to live by an indwelling Lord together.” What I see in the New Testament is that the church is the Body, or expression of Christ Himself. This Body, Bride, House, Family lives as His expression by His own eternal life that is resident within each one of them. They discover this life together and they live by this life together. You cannot have the church without this (internal) life of Christ flowing in and through humans. This is the core of the New Covenant itself. All of the life and nature of Christ will be expressed by this group of believers if they will learn to live by His indwelling life together.
What would you say to those who think ‘organic’ church is simply an ‘open mic’ session?
First of all, I would say that the church is much more than a meeting. She is a community of the redeemed who are living out the very lifestyle of the Godhead. The Godhead does not meet once per week on Sunday morning! It is a life together.
Secondly, I would say that a meeting of the church is much more than an open participatory gathering where everyone gets to talk. It is the expression and overflow of this very life of God, this river of life that is welling up inside of the believers. It’s not a session where people can just share their own ideas, thoughts, and opinions. But rather it’s a feast for God. All of the life that has been deposited into his people is now being expressed back to him. A beautiful explanation of this is seen in John, chapter 4, with the Samaritan woman at the well. First Jesus asked her for a drink. Then he gives her living water that quenches her thirst. This is his life. Now, she can give him a drink with his very own water (life)!
Describe what you understand biblical ‘apostolic ministry’ to be, and the process of how you became involved in this type of work. (Share a bit about your ministry, and how you came up with the name ‘Rebuilders’)
For me, understanding apostolic ministry has taken about twenty years. I was saved when I was twenty years old and I knew then that I was called to God’s work. However, I had no idea what that meant and what my contribution would be. I had no grid for this at the time. None of the usual choices of pastor, evangelist, or missionary seemed to fit.
My understanding of the work needed to develop along with my understanding of the Lord Himself and His eternal purpose. They, of course, are all tied together. The more I got to know the Lord and his purpose, the more I understood my own identity and my role in his body. This understanding is still developing, of course, and I am still very much in the learning phase!
I believe all ministry and work to be very fluid and therefore I have a hard time making concrete style statements. But in general I would say that an apostolic worker is someone who is called by God to go and minister to his church in some way. The emphasis here is on the word “go” because the term “apostolic” by definition means to be sent. Someone who stays is not apostolic. However, this doesn’t mean that an apostolic worker is always traveling. There may be times when he/she stays in one place for a specific time. It’s important to understand the seasonal nature of the church and the work. Paul, for example, at times would stay in certain areas for longer periods of time.
My wife and I are currently in a season of traveling constantly. We typically will stay in an area for three to six months to plant an organic church and then move on to another area. We have no idea how long this season will last.
There were two times in my life when God made it very clear to me what I was called to do. One was when I read a biography of the life of Watchman Nee in China. This had a profound affect on me. The other was when we were involved in the charismatic movement in the seventies and the Lord used someone to give us a message. It was about Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem and the Temple. Nehemiah took the burned and damaged stones, cleaned them off, and placed them back into the walls of the city. We ended up naming our ministry The Rebuilders as a result of receiving that message.
Milt, describe why laying a foundation is essential to church life and why many in the ‘house church movement’ reject outside help.
In my understanding of the New Testament, apostolic ministry is vitally essential to the outworking of God’s eternal purpose. This purpose is my passion and motivation for all that I do. In a nutshell, this purpose is that God would have an authentic representation and expression of his Son to show all creatures and all realms the greatness and fullness of his Son. This expression takes place through humans in his church. I live to be used for that end. This is why I get up in the morning and why I am breathing air at this moment!
For this purpose to be fulfilled, certain things need to take place. One of them is the planting or establishing of local communities of believers who would express this glorious Christ. I believe that the New Testament record strongly indicates that this only happens through the help of a “sent one” who lays a foundation of Jesus Christ among a local group of believers. Of course, a group of believers can start meeting together without the help of an outside worker. But at some point they will need to be planted, established, and born by a worker whom the Lord of the harvest has sent to them. There is no exception to this in the New Testament.
The foundation laying is so essential because in it the believers will learn how to live by the life of an indwelling Lord. They will also receive a revelation of Christ through the preaching of Christ. They will also be equipped to function as the Body of Christ, and they will also receive help on living as a shared-life community.
Paul told us that he planted the church and was a wise master builder who laid the foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3: 6-16). We also see that he preached Christ (1 Cor. 1:23) and that he equipped believers to do the work of the ministry (Eph. 4: 11-13). This is our example of a church planter and we desperately need churches to be raised up in this way again!
I believe that there are three main reasons why believers do not want the help of an outside worker today.
Ignorance – Pride – and Fear
Most do not understand the calling and need of such a worker. Many are too proud to admit that they need anyone from the outside to help. And many are afraid of asking someone to come and help because they have been burned in the past by authoritarian leadership.
Milt, in your opinion, what is the ‘detox’ process, and who needs to go through detox?
We often use the ‘detox’ analogy to express the need of believers to be ‘cleansed’ from the effects of institutional religion. We have all, to some degree or another, been polluted by human religion and institutionalism. God will expose these mindsets and filters and then require us to lay them down at the foot of the cross and pick up only Christ and God’s eternal purpose.
This includes our religious backgrounds and all “baggage” attached to those backgrounds. I would define this baggage as all activities, ways of thinking, and language that was given to us by a man-made system.
What do you see as the biggest pitfall for groups trying to gather outside of the institution?
I would answer this question with one big answer: Refusal to embrace the work of the cross! Organic church just doesn’t work without it. How can you gather together a group of believers in a living room from many different backgrounds, doctrines, and mindsets and expect it to work? There is only one way it will work.
They must all be willing to lay down all of those things and only pick up Christ Himself. It will not work any other way. They will also need the same vision of God’s eternal purpose. And they will also need to be willing to receive outside help, because they will definitely need it at some point; in my experience, the sooner, the better.
What would you say to an individual who wants to get involved in New Testament church life, but isn’t sure where to start?
There are now many resources available to you. There is a website that I have developed with my co-workers called HouseChurchResource.org that is chock full of articles, books, audios, and many other resources.
I would also recommend that you visit one or two existing New Testament style organic churches. If any of your readers would like to visit any of the groups I have helped to plant, they can email me directly at: milt@therebuilders.org
Conclusion
Milt, thank you very much for your time and for sharing your heart. Let me encourage all who have read this interview, and would like more information about Milt’s ministry, blog, and books, to visit the Rebuilders website. Milt has authored several vitally important books that I am certain will be a blessing to you and the community you are a part of. Click here to visit the Rebuilders website.
Thanks again for joining us in this important discussion,
Jamal Jivanjee
Thank you, Jamal and Milt!
I find it interesting that there has been many movements throughout history regarding how we see Christ and His body. The thing about “a movement” is that it is a thing, an event for only the time it takes for that movement to happen, and once it is done, it is over. Next movement, the same sequence, different focus. Even though many can say, “That is a movement in the dealings of God,” must also concede that that movement is a thing, a cause and an effect. I cannot exclaim loudly enough that no matter what is happening as “a movement,” it is only Jesus Christ Himself the Person who our Life, our focus, our everything. If Christ be in us and we are in Christ, then a movement will never be our focus, because a movement ends.
I had a thought on what Milt shared here on the reasons why many do not want a sent one to lay the foundation, being Christ Jesus. “The detox process,” or a wilderness experience as I call it, is a time that Father does a tremendous work. Part of this work is learning to trust Him, and that means Him alone. Is that not where fear dies? There is more to be said on this “trust,” but that is quite extensive as it must be realized through experiential knowing.
Kat,
Great insight about religious ‘movements’, and great insight about the ‘wilderness’ as well. You are absolutely right that trust must be realized through experiential knowing. Only then will fear die. Thank you!
Thank you so much for writing this! This very encouraging.
My pleasure Otto, thx for reading!
Jamal and Milt-
There is some really good stuff in this that I appreciate – thanks for doing this. For example, what meetings are and are not, as well as how imperative the work of the cross is in a community of believers. Milt – I also appreciate you and your wife’s willingness to forsake stability by living and ministering in different places.
As someone who has benefited by another believer coming to our group to work with us and help equip us in Christ, I definitely agree with the benefits of this when that person is responding to a sending from the Lord. My hope is that we can tout the benefits and use of this extra-local and outside ministry, like the other gifts and functions in the body, without putting restrictions on “who” that specific person must be that God may use for a group, what camp or affiliation this person is from, the timing in which they visit a group, and method in which it happens. From my experience, the person that helped our group didn’t claim to be a worker – he just said that he was another brother in Christ with experience who was willing to come and see what the Lord may do during our time together, and he ended up being the right person for our group at the right time. He really focused on the Lord and ignited our group in Him and in our love for one another. In my opinion, the more grassroots we can be, even in our forms of describing ministry or gifts in the body, the easier others can receive it and keep us all in a mutual submissive relationship with Christ as the head. The organic church movement really shies away from using titles and formal descriptions for the other functions of the body (elders, shepherds, prophets, etc) – in my opinion, we might want to apply the same standard to this role and function (apostolic worker) as well, for the same reasons. If not, isn’t it a bit of a double standard? Thanks!
Great point about the apostolic worker. It is a double standard, it seems, especially when apostolic workers ask for financial support so they can do their “apostolic work.” This seems very close to pastors asking for a salary so they can do pastoral work.
Jeremy,
Thx for reading the interview and commenting here.
Please see my comment to Matt regarding my intended use of the term ‘apostolic’ worker for discussion purposes.
Also, I do not think that workers who are sent out to plant and strengthen churches have any comparison whatsoever to institutional clerical figures receiving money for their services. ‘Sent’ ones who receive support to supply their needs have a biblical precedent, while institutional clergy receiving money to ‘run’ a church have no biblical precedent at all.
Jeremy – unlike the modern day pastor role, I believe scripture supports giving financial support to someone who is on the road full time ministering to the Lord’s body. Not that they have to live on support (Paul made tents), but I have no issues supporting someone like this who is sent and forsakes many of the comforts and stability most of us would have a hard time giving up (owning a home, etc.)
Matt,
Thx for reading and commenting on this interview. I am glad you found this to be helpful.
For claification purposes, I use the term ‘apostolic’ worker for description purposes in the same way that the scriptures use the term. I do not intend to use the term in a titular way at all. The reason that the function of the apostolic worker needs to be discussed is because of the gross misunderstanding that is out there about the role, and because of its uniqueness in the body of Christ. It is the only gifting to the body that works in an ‘extra’- local way by coming from outside the local body to minister to the body.
Jamal –
That makes sense – thanks. I have, however, witnessed the term used in more of a routine title form from people not in the role/function – for example, I heard a brother say once that “we need to talk to the workers about that.” I’m not saying this is wrong or bad, but I think if someone in organic church said “we need to talk to the elders about this”, or “we need to talk to the prophets about this” – most would cry foul. Is the crying foul warranted, or is it a result of how we may have discussed the necessity of one role or function primarily over the other roles and functions? Or, is it OK since it is more of an outside role/function as you said? Just something to think about in this conversation.
I am finding that the Lord is impeccable with his timing on using gifts and functions in the body, and often times they are in the ways we would least expect. I feel like I’ve witnessed a brother minister Christ to a group of believers, helping to root and build them up in the Lord, and the reason he was received so well was his humility and act of service. He would even tell you that he doesn’t think he has the gift of apostolic ministry, but I feel like I witnessed the same gift in Him that is described in the NT by those who equipped and strengthened the churches – even if he doesn’t do it very often. If I mentioned his name, I doubt many of you would have ever heard of him. But this guy is laboring hard, night and day, building up the Lord’s body and uniting believers in love. I think Milt is doing the same thing, even though I have never had him visit the group I am a part of. The hearts of both of these brothers are a gift from the Lord.
Perhaps you are right – maybe a good portion of the body better understands the role and function by hearing it formally described in relation to the functions that are described in scripture. If we do this, I just hope we also have can our heart open on the flip side for the Lord to show us that others in the body may be functioning in this role behind the scenes, not calling themselves this, not being part of a well known group of authors, and not be on the radar of other believers. I think the Lord can use both methods and I will pray that he continues to soften my heart towards all the brothers and sisters who are functioning in both the public view and behind the scenes. Appreciate the discussion bro!
Matt,
I love Paul’s clarity and boldness regarding his role in the body of Christ. For example, Galatians 1:1.
Milt is a true saint and a true laborer in Christ. Thanks, Jamal, for the interview.
Love you both!
Amen! Love you too bro, thx for reading!
Thanks, Jamal and Milt. I’ve been enriched and encouraged by the interview and by the dialogue in the comments thus far. May God continue to bring forth His testimony in the earth as we walk humbly with Him.
Jamal, I thank you so very much for this interview. I to am one of the privileged ones who has been able to spend some time with Milt. I have been able to observe this man, he is indeed a jewel in the crown of our great King. His humility and demeanor are just a few of the things I love about Milt. The fact that he and Mary are willing to go and invest in a community of believers for months, and then leave, speaks a lot to me. He is not building a kingdom here for or around himself. Rather, for Christ alone. Milt has helped me, by simply being a friend and brother, more than I will ever be able to repay. I am a blessed man , simply because he is my friend and brother. Thank you so much for shining the light on this special “worker”, all who know him, and will someday know him, are truly blessed.
My pleasure John, thx for reading and sharing your heart. Blessings to you:)
Jamal, thanks for bringing Milt (and Mary) to the table in this fashion. This article can easily be used as a springboard for conversation with those who might be “seeking” Christ on a deeper level. I encourage everyone to go deeper into Jamal’s website http://www.illuminate-us.com/ as well as his blog at http://jamaljivanjee.com/ to catch a glipse of what God is doing in His church.
Mark,
Thx for that. Much appreciated! Love ya!
I am halfway through the interview, so not totally finished yet. I began to tear up when I read the description of why Rebuilders was picked as a name. I have met Mary and Milt and can see Jesus all the way through them. I look forward to getting to know them better and to learn what God has taught them so far on this journey. I have already been blessed by them and their work for the Body of Christ.
Thx for reading Mary. I’m glad that you have had the opportunity to personally know Milt & Mary. You know first hand how much of a blessing they are!
I hope to see you around the blog:)
Great Q&A Jamal! Very wise and insightful answers, based on solid revelation and experience. Thanks!
Amen Trevor, thank you:)
and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Therefore they that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word. (Acts 8:1 & 4)
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
(1 Corinthians 3)
Wow what insight these brothers and sisters have.
Honestly can any one show the biblical basis from the bible (aka Gods word) to (apart from ones so called personal revelation) proclaim that women are called to be apostles teachers pastors etc.
I have 8 daughters who look to me as their Father for instruction in righteousness and training in the Lord.Having walked in the Light concerning NT Church for over 20 years now (long before books and how to manuals were ever written on the subject) Clearly one has to yield to written instructions when all else fails to make sense in light of todays generous dialog.
For me its about divine order in a ordered universe which we must occupy till Jesus returns. Things will be different in the eternal state.
In hope,
Rex
Thx for reading and commenting. You have brought up a different topic than what is discussed here. Let me encourage you to read this article I wrote about the universal enslavement of women. You can post a comment to that article after you carefully read it. It should answer your questions and misconceptions about women. Here is the link: http://jamaljivanjee.com/?p=725