Why Was Louie Giglio Invited To The Inauguration In The First Place?
Yesterday, a controversy rocked the evangelical world. Louie Giglio, a famous clergyman from Atlanta, withdrew his acceptance to an invitation to give the benediction at Barack Obama’s upcoming inauguration. There were several groups that opposed him being giving such an honor. You can read more about this by clicking HERE.
Many evangelicals were outraged that he felt he had to withdraw. Thousands of his fans felt he was treated unfairly. Many others tweeted and expressed an even greater admiration for him and his stance that caused the controversy. As I took in yesterday’s news, I was grieved that so many well meaning people completely missed the real tragedy in this situation. There is a monumental question that Christians are simply not asking…
Why was Louie Giglio invited to the inauguration in the first place?
The answer to this question is far more troubling. Before I share more, I’d like to say a few personal things about Louie Giglio. I have a lot of respect and love for him as a brother in Christ. He has been a personal blessing in my life. I know him to be the ‘real deal’, so to speak. I have looked deep into this brother’s eyes and I have seen Jesus Christ.
This vision of Christ in him has changed me. He has prayed for me personally, and the words that came out of his mouth in that prayer were from the Lord Himself. There is no doubt in my mind about this. The Lord used him to shape my journey at a critical time in my life in many ways. I wanted you to know this before you consider the rest of this article.
The organizations that Louie Giglio has built and leads, however, are a picture of the problem of institutional christendom. Louie is the head of ‘Passion City Church’ in Atlanta, GA, and he also is the head of Passion Conferences. I have written about the problematic nature of such conferences in this post entitled:
Why Drugs Wear Off (worship conferences & the tree of knowledge)
The Power Of The Popes
Do you ever wonder why the Vatican has a seat at the United Nations? Do you ever wonder why world leaders regularly travel to Rome to kiss the hand of the Pope? The reason is quite simple. Power.
Government & Religion are two major structures that wield influence over the masses. Although many within those structures desire to accomplish good through the use of their power, the life blood of both of these world’s systems are power and control. Historically, both mankind’s government & mankind’s religion have tended to have a competitive & contentious relationship with one another for influence over the masses. Although both are wary of one another, both recognize one another and attempt to use each other to accomplish their purposes.
Government leaders want influential pope like figures on their side because they know these figures are the heads of institutions that control human and financial resources. The same can be said of why clerical leaders want to influence governmental leaders as well. Both systems recognize each other because both are from the same overall system. Jesus specifically told His disciples to beware of both groups when He said this:
And He (Jesus) was giving orders to them, saying, “Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” (Mark 8:15, NASB)
Wow, did you catch that? Jesus was quite clearly singling out, and lumping two groups together. The ‘Pharisees’ represent religious leaders, and ‘Herod’ represent governmental leaders. Jesus wanted His disciples to avoid the substance of both groups. Isn’t it ironic that the conversation and fascination in institutional Christendom revolves around both groups that Jesus specifically warned us to avoid ?
There are many ‘popes’ in mankind’s religious system. Louie Giglio has become another one of many. His idolization by many of his endearing fans have made him an attractive target for ‘Herod’. I know that has not been Louie’s intention, but that is the natural result of the system that he is operating in. His invitation is very telling indeed.
Jesus Christ, however, is quite different. He was not accepted by the religious leaders. He simply was not one of them. They hated Him. The governmental authorities were indifferent toward him until He negatively affected their relationship with the religious leaders. The governmental system of Jesus’ day could not recognize Him because, unlike the religious clergy, He was not of this world. The scriptures describe Jesus as someone whom was not ‘stately’ or ‘regal’. When Jesus was eventually brought before Pilot & Herod, they were unimpressed and thought Him to be harmless, so to speak. It was the religious crowd that were threatened by Him.
Brothers & sisters, do not be alarmed that Louie Giglio will not give the benediction at the inauguration, be more ‘alarmed’ that the masses of evangelicals are not ‘alarmed’ that ‘Herod’ was impressed with one of their leaders in the first place.
Jamal Jivanjee
Thought-provoking article, Jamal.
Would you say that church leaders have no business in anything related to government? Since Jesus wasn’t involved with Herod, church leaders shouldn’t be either? On the other hand, he didn’t say avoid or do not be involved with Herod, he said “beware”.
I’m not sure what I think yet, just writing out loud, as it were. I totally hear what you’re saying here but part of me also feels like the Kingdom is advancing and it touches all spheres of influence, including politics. However, it is something to approach with sobriety since the allure of power breeds corruption.
Tony,
Thanks for reading and sharing your heart brother. First, let me say that I do not want to make a new ‘law’, so to speak, and say what a person should do, or not do, in relation to these matters. The indwelling life of Christ in these people will be able to guide them.
The kingdom (Christ) is internal before it will be external. There is a common religious misconception that the Lord is going to re-new our man made ‘spheres’. He is not. He is rescuing people from them because these ‘systems’ are like the titantic. He will completely replace these ‘spheres’ that so many are trying to give a ‘face-lift’ to.
Regarding my personal decision about my own political involvement, take a few minutes to read this article that I wrote last year titled ‘Why I Decided To Move To A New Nation’. Here is the link:
http://jamaljivanjee.com/?p=695
The “Why I decided to move to a New Nation” article was what caused me to start reading your blog. I loved it.
So, I loved the article and totally agree with your heart and your principle.
Awesome, that’s great to hear Josh. Blessings to you brother.
I still think there is a real problem with this. It separates ‘the church’ as some separate entity from the physical realm. The church is made up of people. They are called to bring the influence and redemption of Jesus everywhere they are. This kind of thinking is what makes Christians sit around and wait for Jesus return rather than engage the world around us. Yes it is true that Jesus will return and set up perfect order. He will do this and doesn’t require our help to do so. However, Jesus called us (the church) to be in the world but not out of it. I fear that the kind of thinking mentioned above actually calls many to be both out of the world and not of it.
Just because some erroneously believe they can usher in God’s kingdom through man’s government or any other entity does not mean we are to stop working as Christians to see these arena’s sanctified while we are here on earth. The government or any other entity is just a system made up of people. We are called plain and simple to see others grow as disciples of Jesus. As Jesus does that throug us these people all live in the here and now will naturally change their actions in this present world. When people do that it changes the entities where they live, work and play. That is a gift of God. It’s not an attempt to recreate Jesus’ government it’s just basic sanctification of people which naturally leads into the things they do and organizations where they serve. The government is no exception as an organization.
There is no biblical call for Christians to abandon or avoid this sector no matter how many Christians mistake political activity as the end game for believers shaping culture. I am with you so much on most of what you write but I can never single out a section of our society and say it is off limits to the influence of Jesus in Christians (the church).
Jeremy,
Thanks for reading that follow up article. Obviously, I will have to disagree with your assessment. What I am advocating does not seperate the church from society, but does the exact opposite. What I am advocating simply refocuses us on Jesus Christ Himself. When this occurs, transformation naturally occurs.
When I embrace a lesser ‘mission’ of community / society transformation, transformation does not really occur in a supernatuatural way. Yes, good things may be accomplished depending on the organization that I am humanly able to build, but it will not last. In the end, this leads to burn-out.
I hadn’t read about this till you posted and again I am so blessed to read your deep insights ! How important it is to look beyond what is just seen outwardly !
This scripture came to my mind : Jesus said unto him ; Judas do you betray the son of man with a kiss ? Is this not what religion still is doing to this day ?
The kisses look “outwardly” like they love and serve Christ “…but their heart is far from the truth and is a betrayer to them and all who follow blindly.
may our Lord keep our hearts rooted deeply in His love and truth ! <3
Thanks for reading Millie:)
I love your blog Jamal, and I try to read it as often as I can. I completely understand your thoughts about “Why the drugs wear off”.
I started to comment here and ask “Well, why was he invited?” but I clicked on one of your links and I read this: “Giglio, a pastor and the leader of the Passion Movement, was chosen to deliver the benediction because he’s a “powerful voice for ending human trafficking and global sex slavery” and due to his work in mobilizing young people in that effort, an inauguration official said earlier in the week when the reverend’s selection was first announced.” http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/10/giglio-bows-out-of-inauguration-over-sermon-on-gays/?hpt=hp_t3
I like the reasoning behind why he was invited, don’t you?
Is there something I’m not aware of under the surface there?
I’m not a follower of Louie so I don’t know well what he is all about. I’ve heard him speak once or twice, but that is it.
Here’s a question for you about politics, Do you avoid voting all together? I see problems with both of the parties in America today, but I also think it is a mistake to totally avoid politics all together. Any thoughts?
By the way, I wanted to come and meet you at my friend’s house on New Year’s Eve but I had prior commitments. If you are ever back in town I’d love to hang out or have to come and share at aplacetotalk.
Josh,
Thanks for reading, and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. Yes, it would have been great to meet you.
In regards to your question, let me share with you what I shared with Tony who commented above on this article. He asked the same thing about the validity of being involved with politics. Here was my reply:
“Thanks for reading and sharing your heart brother. First, let me say that I do not want to make a new ‘law’, so to speak, and say what a person should do, or not do, in relation to these matters. The indwelling life of Christ in these people will be able to guide them.
The kingdom (Christ) is internal before it will be external. There is a common religious misconception that the Lord is going to re-new our man made ‘spheres’. He is not. He is rescuing people from them because these ‘systems’ are like the titantic. He will completely replace these ‘spheres’ that so many are trying to give a ‘face-lift’ to.
Regarding my personal decision about my own political involvement, take a few minutes to read this article that I wrote last year titled ‘Why I Decided To Move To A New Nation’. Here is the link:
http://jamaljivanjee.com/?p=695
Josh,
One more thought. The reasoning behind why Louie was invited was ‘good’. I touch on the problem of simply ‘good’ in the article that I linked to in this post titled ‘Why Drugs Wear Off (worship conferences & the tree of knowledge). Check it out when you get a chance.
I love your heart Jamal and agree with you on most things. You state the things about Louie personally and then begin to compare him with Christ. You say Louie himself spoke into your life as a brother, and I would venture to say he speaks into countless lives and speaks life and encouragement just as he did yours. To whom much is given much is required. He may have been given “10 talents” where you may have only been given “2″. I understand your point about why was he even recognized, Herod did not agree with the Pharisees he just wanted the benefits, as does Obama. He sees the following, he does not necessarily agree with Louie’s platform.
I love the body of Christ, I love the fellowship, the community of believers coming together and just “being”, due to time I am not able to go on here but, Christ himself said “we shall do greater things then these” because of the Holy Spirit. What are those greater things?
Much love
rob
I agree with you, Rob. Obama desperately wants the support of evangelicals. Why would he not want to have one of the most respected and least controversial one speak at his inauguration? He needs a member of clergy, and he chose one that looks good for him. “Herod” was impressed with a preacher who is well-loved by the vast majority of Christians, not because he thinks that Louie Giglio is on his side, or that they will form an alliance. It’s just more political marketing by the current administration.
Rob,
Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts here. I’m not sure you understood what I was saying, however. This has nothing to do with ‘talents’ and ‘doing greater things.’
Thanks Jamal for this posting.
I share similar thoughts with Josh (except for voting, politics, blah… blah.. blah).
I don’t think the US government (Herod) was impressed with Louie as much as they were attempting to appeal to evangelicals. And I’m sure some legitimately thought it was a good idea because of his work against human trafficking. It makes sense.
Jamal, I totally understand the power games of the worldly kingdoms, and the problems with organized religion. However, I personally think you go too far here. I wouldn’t assume that Louie is participating in “Christendom” because he was asked to pray.
Of course, I would have respectfully declined in the first place. But I believe in Louie. I have also met and spoke with him. I don’t agree with all of this theology, or all of the decisions with Passion, but he’s a brother that is doing real Kingdom work. I celebrate that.
You’re right for asking the questions, “Why was he asked to pray?” I thought the same thing. But I think if there is anything fishy going on here… it’s with the Empire, not Louie.
David,
Thanks for reading and sharing your heart. I also believe in Louie. I believe in him as a brother in Christ. This article isn’t about his heart or his motivation. It is a commentary of the ‘system’, so to speak that he is operating in.
I love the fact that you used the word ‘empire’. This ‘empire’ that you speak of has a couple of components. It has a religious component, and a governmental component. Both components of this ‘empire’ are of the world’s fallen system. Louie is operating in the midst of one component of the ‘empire’, and the other component of the same empire saw him as a useful tool to accomplish what it sees as good. There is more that could be said about this, but that is another conversation for another day.
If you’re interested, you might like to read this article titled: ‘Why I Decided To Move To A New Nation:
http://jamaljivanjee.com/?p=695
Blessings to you David.
That’s cool. I know this wasn’t about his heart or motivation.
I disagree that Louie is operating within the confines of Empire. I once grouped people and organizations together like that, but not anymore. I don’t think it’s accurate or helpful to do so.
Thank you for your kind response, bro.
My pleasure bro. I like to keep the people seperate from ‘organizations’. There are many organizations and institutions, but that is only temporary. Mankind sees people through the organizations and institutions they claim. The Lord, however, only sees His one and only Son whom we are an expression of. This is our only identity, and this identity is eternal.
I can’t really say *Why* I think Louie was invited, there are so many things we could look at.
I will say though, that *someone* was going to be invited, and the fact that it was Louie, I think is kind of cool, and I think Louie felt honored.
For me Personally, to go on as to why he was invited, and why he didn’t go, I think for me would just be speculating or basing assumptions on things that I’m clueless about. I’m also not much into politics, I probably should be more so. I like Josh Mcdowell’s Response. Perhaps this all has nothing to do with Louie as a person, but rather the voice he has regarding deeper issues as Josh stated above. Either way, I respect all parties involved… And really admire Louie’s Heart, even if it’s not quite how I would choose to ‘do life’. He’s a great guy. Kind of cute, too.
Katie,
Thanks for reading and sharing your heart. I also like Louie and think he is kinda cute too;)
I agree. I say that we should always be aware of our associations. Association with a thing, whether it be a person, institutional ruler or institution, often means recommendation and approval of that person, institutional ruler or institution before others. Unless we are offering a rebuke through prayer or standing as a testimony of rebuke, our prayer can be mistaken for a approval of a systemically harmful ethic or thought.
Brian,
Who did Jesus hang out with?
Jamal,
Good point made there. But what we would think if Jesus were asked to pray on the same stage with the Pharisees and Herod? Would he not be identifying himself with them and with being in union with them?
I am not talking about hanging out with people/sinners, but identifying with religious/institutional structures. Moreover, not necessarily the structures (i.e. the temple) but with the religious rulers who use the people for their own gain in world of religion.
Who did Jesus not hang out with?
Jamal,
I usually agree with much of what you write but I wholeheartedly disagree with this post. Jesus died to redeem all aspects of our society. Just as there is no division between the sacred and secular..there is no segment of society that Jesus’ followers aren’t called to invade and redeem through Christ in us. The government is one segment of our society. It is not off limits in any ways to Christians. There is no biblical basis for that idea. It is a similar though line that leads people to believe that certain people or activities are more spiritual than others. This I know you don’t endorse.
Modern American culture tends to say faith should stay out of government. This just isn’t biblical. This doesn’t mean that the government is the solution to our society’s ills. It just means that we don’t treat it as some ‘hands off’ zone for disciples of Jesus.
Jeremy,
Thanks for reading brother. I totally understand where you are coming from. If you would, please take a look at my response to a reader named Tony who was the first to comment on this post. My response to him may clarify things a bit. Also, a reader named Michael K. posted a comment and addressed your concern. I am going to post his comment here so you can see what he said. You can also reply directly to Michael’s comment below if you’d like to respond. Here is what Michael had to say:
“Louie G. is a brother in Christ. He’s got a part of Christ that the world desperately needs to see.
You know who else does? My friend, Stu. And my sister in Christ, Misty. And a wonderful sister who lives in Canada, Gioia.
Why aren’t these people invited to the inauguration of the President?
Why wasn’t I?
What is it about Louie’s position and office that is impressive to a system that is said to be under Satan’s control?
And, Jeremy, I held your viewpoint at one time. (Message boards are tough to navigate, and I hope you don’t hear sarcasm in this, I’m being sincere.)
The evidence of the New Testament is overwhelmingly against this viewpoint of man’s systems. One example would be 1 Corinthians 7:31b “for the world in its form is passing away.” God’s new creation is a person – his beloved Son known by us and expressed in us. It has nothing to do with organizations, governments, institutions.
“Christ IN you” is the new creation. The new creation is concerned with a person (Jesus) being displayed in people (the church) and nothing else. This is a great offense, it offends me constantly. But it’s a worthy offense.”
I’m not bombing this thread because I want to argue, nor because I passionately disagree. I’m bombing (no violent pun intended) because I’m trying to sort this out for myself.
I feel a responsibility as a believer to make disciples of Christ in every segment of population. Aren’t we as believers to be like Jesus, you might even go so far as to say to be Jesus to this world? If so, wouldn’t we be Jesus in schools, ministries, social arenas, and even in the US government. See the US government wasn’t designed to be an empire (it clearly is today) but that isn’t (or wasn’t) the plan or strategy is it? I’m asking a sincere question here. I’m not trying to convince you, I’m trying to decide if my thoughts have the support of my understanding.
Was the original strategy a bit different with America? Did they want to build a place of freedom, a place where they could follow Jesus as they believed He was leading them. Were they attempting to just be a safe, and free society?
I’m not a fan of the evil we committed coming here and treating the natives unjustly, but I am a fan of some of the ideas Americans wrote down later.
I’ve been talking about “rights” this weekend with Raborn Johnson and Steve Sensenig from the Beyond the Box podcast. You all would love one another if you don’t already know one another.
Anyway, we’ve been talking about how it is Christian to sacrifice my personal rights for the other or the enemy. I get that, the hang up I’m having is with me sacrificing the rights of my neighbor (the other).
I know the story Jesus told of the good Samaritan was a parable but what if in the story the Good Samaritan had shown up during the beating. Should he have volunteered to take the beating for the victim? Maybe, and I want to say that I would do that – die or be beaten so the victim could go free, the problem is – I’m not really sure what I would do (until I’m in that situation) – A, and B – I’m not sure taking the beating would stop the enemy from continuing on against the original victim after me.
I may be assuming something untrue, I just looked through your blog to see, and I can’t tell quickly. I’m assuming that your stance against government participation is at least somewhat predicated by your attempt to non-violently follow Jesus, His way. The way of death before violence, the way of love, the way of sacrifice.
Anyway, I’m working through by thinking here… ignore if this was unclear rambling.
Josh,
It seems pretty clear that this blog, who is written by a friend I have know for more than 15 years and planted a church with, is not against the government or Louie Giglio.
he believes that the church as we know it has become institutional and corrupt. He believes that Louie Giglio getting an invite is just a symptom of the world affirming this corrupt institution.
You can Check out his blogs. He refers to the institutional church as the whore of Babylon in his blog about the “other woman”. His reviews on Pagan Christianity or Frank Viola are pretty clear where he stands. This might give you a bit of insight.
To his credit, I know Jamal to be a man of integrity and always acts in accord with what he believes. He is usually very considerate of others and cares deeply for the Gospel.
We have disagreed for many years and I have mostly stopped responding to his blog. This one about Louie caught my attention though because I saw the impact Passion had on Jamal and our church body. The reason I have stopped responding is because I have never once seen Jamal admit he might be wrong to someones reply. He is either right or you are wrong.
If I have misrepresented Jamls views I will let him correct me.
Just so we are clear: The institutional church of which Louie Giglio is a part of, is referred to as the whore of babylon in jamals blog about the other woman. He can correct me if I misrepresented his view.
Josh,
Thanks for the comment. Your beyond the box podcast sounds interesting. Regarding the whole concept of ‘making disciples’, I wrote an article that you might be interested in reading. Here is the title and link:
‘Making Disciples…Why We Should Forget What We Heard: http://jamaljivanjee.com/?p=50
Jamal,
First off, thank you for your posts. They Jesus has used this and the body there in Nashville in my life in many ways. Reading this however reminded me of an earlier post where you wrote about praying for the president. What if something similar to that is why Louie agreed at first? I too believe Louie is the real deal…. Christ has used him in my life as well… So doesn’t our president need to see and be impacted by someone who truly loves the Lord? I actually feel this was very similar to what you were saying happened to Jesus… I think originally they saw someone who was taking a stand against human trafficking but because Louie stands for Truth there was grumbling. I greatly respect Louie for his declining when the prayer became about him. Even in his statement of response he wanted to make much of Christ. These are just my first reaction thoughts (and I’m writing this on my phone lol) so hopefully they make sense.
Shouldn’t we be grieved at how much venomous hate is being directed towards Christ? Much of the comments yesterday that I saw weren’t just about the institution– they were about our belief in Jesus. We live in a lost and hurting world. I guess for me, what happened yesterday is that I saw the very deep and hurting need of the people around us to truly know and fall in love with Jesus Christ. I believe this is why Louie said yes, our President and our nation need Jesus. Like I said, just my rambling thoughts. Thanks Jamal.
Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts Erin. When are you coming back to Nashville for a visit? I miss talking to you:)
As I read this I could hear many more coins falling in their slots. (questions I’ve had suddenly having an answer.)
Very nice indeed;)
Louie G. is a brother in Christ. He’s got a part of Christ that the world desperately needs to see.
You know who else does? My friend, Stu. And my sister in Christ, Misty. And a wonderful sister who lives in Canada, Gioia.
Why aren’t these people invited to the inauguration of the President?
Why wasn’t I?
What is it about Louie’s position and office that is impressive to a system that is said to be under Satan’s control?
And, Jeremy, I held your viewpoint at one time. (Message boards are tough to navigate, and I hope you don’t hear sarcasm in this, I’m being sincere.)
The evidence of the New Testament is overwhelmingly against this viewpoint of man’s systems. One example would be 1 Corinthians 7:31b “for the world in its form is passing away.” God’s new creation is a person – his beloved Son known by us and expressed in us. It has nothing to do with organizations, governments, institutions.
“Christ IN you” is the new creation. The new creation is concerned with a person (Jesus) being displayed in people (the church) and nothing else. This is a great offense, it offends me constantly. But it’s a worthy offense.
Wow, brilliantly said bro! Powerful…dang.
Jamal,
I don’t know the language and so I can’t play with the toys; It’s not my playground. But, I understand this so far: this guy, Louie Giglio, is revered, and this revered Louie Giglio person has decided not to give something called benediction to a world leader. This word makes me think of the words, benefit and diction, pasted together to create a new word. So, we have a person who is awed by the world, and this awed person was invited to give a benefit to the world leader because he is awed by the world, and this awed person’s speech (diction) is the benefit given to the world leader to prosper.
Emperor Constantine figured the great benediction-giving valuable present a long time ago. At that time, the new world religion was given a title called Christianity, and this new Christianity religion was the new world religion of the Roman Empire, and Christianity was mandated by the Emperor of Rome, the world power (the believers, those not part of it, received heavy persecution, and the new title for the new spirit kingdom of the empire’s religion, Christianity, was titled Christendom, and its citizens; well most people know how it played out in history. The unbelievers, the world, created the first title, and the world power, the Emperor Constantine, grew upon that title that the world’s mind (wrong tree) had first created for the believers in Jesus Christ in a region in that same empire. As I said a moment ago, it’s not my playground, it’s like a foreign language to me. The world’s tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, has many branches, one of them being the righteous branch; a look-alike version of the True Righteous Branch, also for the Kingdom of Heaven/God(His reign in us), and the priesthood of all believers, which is the Spirit nation of all priests, the new race born out of the Sent One from God/Heaven. God’s Seed, the Seed from the Tree of Life, is in us, and we are the branches who are living His Life in us, our Source, God’s Christ, Jesus the Christ.
Kat, as usual, you have true access to the heart of Christ in these matters. This may not be your language or your playground, but I pray the Spirit will open the eyes and ears of the children to see and hear…and understand what you have shared!
Spectacular Kat! Thanks for your heart and your willingness to put deep thought into your responses!
Leah and Tim, I very much appreciate you both, my sister and brother, standing beside me, that means more to me than I can say at this moment. Tim, about that ‘deep thought’ thing, well, the words kind of just flow out of me like that, quick like. I can be rather shocked myself, sometimes. I think maybe neither shallow nor deep, just Reality as Reality Is, I suspect. Thanks again, you two precious saints in Christ.
Hey Jamal!
You know how much I love you and have agreed with so many of your posts… and you also know how much I love Louie and Shelley — so what I am about to say may not come as a surprise to you, but I think I am supposed to say it anyway
.
I remember a time not too long ago when you expressed the hurt that you felt by the way you were being attacked on your blog, and I understood completely what you were saying. That being said, did you happen to see all of the tweets that Louie was getting yesterday morning before he backed out??? It was so awful! Hundreds and hundreds of people calling Louie a bigot and anti-gay and much far worse names… and saying things that made me want to throw up! I cannot even imagine being in his or Shelley’s or any of their team’s shoes yesterday!
And then… out came their fellow believers with all of their opinions on how he should or shouldn’t have handled the whole thing… ugh!!! Again, I can’t imagine what they were going through yesterday, and I bet if you really thought about it, you couldn’t imagine it either…
I really do appreciate that your blogpost began with how much you love and respect Louie as brother in Christ! You and I both know how much of an impact he has had on our lives!
I think what I am saying to you is this… Do you think maybe this is a time where we as the body of Christ should come together and support our fellow believer?
Maybe, just maybe it is not the time to try to further our own beliefs about the “system” and how messed up it is?
I know how much you believe in unity and it seems like right now everyone is so divided that we can’t even see how horrible it might be to stand in the shoes of the people who are in the spotlight… and yes, I know how you feel about the spotlight
.
Karen,
Thanks so much for reading and commenting here sister. This is a rare honor that I wish could happen more often. First off, let me say that I absolutely admire your commitment and devotion personally to Louie & Shelly. They are truly beautiful people. Your heart to see Christ in them and defend them is inspiring to me.
Second, I actually wrote this for unity’s sake believe it or not. It is this system that keeps us divided, not the questioning of this system. I am heart broken at the abuse that has been heaped upon Louie & Shelly and their employees by the world & the religious community. Both groups are really the same.
Third, I am convinced one reason our soverign Lord has planned this to occur is specifically so this very conversation can occur. Like it or not, Louie is a celebrity idol that many are unduly devoted to. Obviously, this is not Louie’s heart, but it is the aim of the man-made system they are operating in. This system needs to be questioned, and this is the perfect time to do it in my opinion. It is this system that keeps us from being unified.
There is huge difference between healthy debate and personally attacking someone. I’d like to think this article adds to the healthy debate that has been long over due. I wrote more about this in this article: http://jamaljivanjee.com/?p=22
I hope that makes sense sister. By the way, can I hire you to answer some of my email;)
Karen,
I have an additional comment that I’d like for you to consider. As you know, slavery is a huge problem today. Many are held in bondage. Should we not act to see the captives set free when the Lord is stirring in us to do so?
I want to end it. I want to see slavery destroyed. That is why I wrote this article. That is why this blog exists.
Hi Jamal!
Many years ago, when we planted an institutional church together, I recall the influence Louie Giglio had on you. It was really a great time to see all that God was teaching you and to see your passion for His Glory grow! It was also fun to see how God used Louie to influence our community as well as myself. Many of those young people have gone on to have an incredible impact on others lives for His Name and continue to do so.
I met with a student today who just returned from the Passion conference a couple of weeks ago who has been influenced by what Louie had shared at the conference. I have been praying for this young man to live for God’s Kingship and wake up from his own apathy. It is so cool to see him becoming transformed right before my eyes. God used Louie and the conference in a really big way. It reminds me of you and how Louie influenced you so many years ago.
I realize we do not agree on what “church” is, but I know we agree that it is amazing when believers become transformed by the Holy Spirit to reflect Jesus.
Isn’t it ironic then that you disagree with a system that puts Louie in an influencial situation while applauding his influence in your life?
In fact, you are using this situation in order to influence others with your views. I know that you have used many cultural situations in order to blog your views so that you can influence others. I don’t fault you at all for doing so. It is the system of communication that you employ.
So why would you fault Louie for being in a situation where he might be able to influence others with his views? Is it just that you disagree with his views on “church”? Help me out here.
By the way, thank you for your kind words to Tammy a few weeks ago. It ment alot to her!
Ed,
Brother, it’s an honor to have you here on the blog again. Thanks so much for reading and commenting. As I process what you have said, a few things come to mind that I’d like to share with you.
First, let me address what you have brought up about me ‘faulting’ Louie for something. To be honest, in this article I have not faulted Louie for anything. If we are going to ‘fault’ someone, however, I’d like to ‘fault’ that other ‘woman’. This other ‘woman’ is causing lots of problems for many people, including Louie. She leads people into a modern day slavery. She is quite evil indeed. My heart is to see these slaves find freedom from her. Ed, I wrote about this ‘woman’ earlier this week. If you’d like, take a few minutes to read about her. Here is the title and link:
‘For God’s Sake, & Your Own Health, Stop Sleeping With Her! (a 2013 New Year Resolution)’: http://jamaljivanjee.com/?p=2569
Second, I’d like to talk about this thing called ‘influence’. True influence is God given. True influence comes out of who you are in Christ. It is His life in us that is influential. It comes from ‘being’, not ‘doing’. It is a mistake to believe that you need to be in a certain situation to be influential. You will be influential wherever the Lord puts you. With that said, the religious system of mankind attracts the wrong kind of ‘influence’. It gets the wrong kind of attention. It attracts ‘flies’, so to speak. This story is a great example of that. Believers who operate in this system are a mixed bag. They have much of Christ to offer, but they also reinforce a corrupt system in the process that is harmful.
While I did mention that Louie was a positive influence in my life, the ‘system’ he operated in also negatively affected me as well. Many, many young people are being negatively affected by this system that Louie functions in. Obviously, this is not Louie’s heart, but he actually reinforces a false, unbiblical view of worship, leadership, and church community that causes many problems for people. This is not Louie’s fault, it is ultimately the ‘woman’s’ fault, but Louie is still affected by her and by default advances her goals. I give more examples in other articles, in greater detail, of how Louie’s system negatively affects young people, and people in general. If you’re interested, I’d be glad to pass them on to you.
Thankfully, the Lord is able to work in the midst of this. As you correctly pointed out, the Lord greatly used Louie in my life. This does not mean that the Lord endorsed the system he operates in. Amazingly, the Lord works in spite of it, not because of it. The Lord speaks to me a lot through contrasts. Many times, He will show me what something isn’t to prepare me for what it is.
For example, the Lord showed me what church leadership isn’t to prepare me for what true church leadership is. It is through the contrast that He shines brighter. He did the same thing in regards to true worship. The Lord showed me what worship is not through Passion. This discovery of what worship is not literally prepared me for what true worship actually is. I could go on and on, but maybe you get the point. Obviously at the time I didn’t realize this, but looking back, I can see the Lord’s hand in all of it.
Love you bro, and thanks again for commenting.
I read your blog.
Just so that I am clear. God used louie and the Passion Network to open your eyes to what true worship is. By seeing clearly that Louie is caught up in a false system in which you refer to as the Whore of Babylon.
You don’t fault Louie, but simply point out that he is imbedded in this great lie.
So this blog is just pointing out that the system wants people like Louie Giglio to be influential. I assume because it continues to propagate the Whore of Babylon.
Did I understand you right?
Ed,
Actually, I discovered a lot of what worship was NOT through my experiences with Passion. I wrote more about this in this article. Check it out when you get a chance. Here is the title and link:
Two Terms Of Mass Confusion (and a strange video): http://jamaljivanjee.com/?p=920
As far as your other conclusions are concerned, I’ll leave that up to you to decide.
I read both of the blogs you suggested. I just want to be clear.
Your point is that
God used louie and the Passion Network to open your eyes to what true worship is. By seeing clearly that Louie is caught up in a false system in which you refer to as the Whore of Babylon.
You don’t fault Louie, but simply point out that he is imbedded in this great lie.
So this blog is just pointing out that the system wants people like Louie Giglio to be influential. I assume because it continues to propagate the Whore of Babylon
Please don’t leave it up to me to draw my own conclusion. That is how things get messed up.
Is this what you are saying? Yes or no?
Ed,
I’m not really leaving it up to you to understand. Also, don’t worry about things getting ‘messed up’. In His time, if there is any truth to what I am saying, the Lord will help you understand it correctly. I have made my articles freely available to you. What I have said, I have said clearly and openly. I know several folks who are in your circle of influence who seem to clearly understand and believe in what I am communicating here. If you are not sure of what I am saying, then there is a reason for this inability for you to see at this time. Revelation comes from internal revelation from the Lord, not someone’s persuasive intellectual argument. Let me give you a couple of examples.
1. Jesus openly taught and expressed His Father to the disciples. He never spelled out the conclusion of who He truly was, however, until He had a conversation with Peter. He asked Peter who people said He was. Peter said that many simply see Jesus as a prophet, or a good teacher. Jesus then asked Peter who he said He was. Peter responded with a declaration that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. Peter ‘got it’, even though others missed it. Jesus did not credit his teaching / explanation as the reason why Peter ‘got it’. Jesus was clear that no human being revealed this truth to Peter, but the Father revealed it to him. (Matthew 16:17) This is the nature of true revelation. The same applies here. My explanation will not reveal anything to you. If there is indeed any truth to anything I have openly and clearly said, the Lord is able to reveal it to you.
2. The second thing that I’d like to discuss has to do with misunderstanding. When Jesus told the crowd that they had to ‘eat His flesh, and drink His blood’, they were horrified and confused. They left. He never tried to stop them from leaving by attempting to explain it in a better way that they could understand. Jesus understood that their offense at what He was saying was rooted in a lack of a revelation from the Father (John 6:44). If the Father was not drawing them at that time, then Jesus would be wasting His time trying to intellectually make them understand.
I say all of that to put you at ease regarding your fear of ‘getting things messed up’ as you have said. If it is not clear to you what I have already said, you can come to the conclusion that what I am saying may not be true at all, or you could come to the conclusion that you have not been given a revelation from the Father about these things at this point in time. In either case, nothing I can say will be of help if what I have already said is not of help right now. I hope that makes sense:)
Thanks for the help in that.
I am coming to the conclusion that you believe that the institutional church is the Whore of Babylon as described in Revelations.
This is from the “other woman” blog.
I am coming to the conclusion that you are not upset with Louie Giglio, but the system that Louie is a part of (Whore of babylon).
I am coming to the conclusion that you believe God used things like the Passion Network and John Piper to help you see what worship is not.
If my conclusions are correct just say yes. If my conclusion is incorrect then just clarify for me. This is not an arguement. I just want to know if my conclusion is exactly what you are saying.
Ed,
I also am not intending to be argumentitive. I do think it is interesting, however, that you are not confident in your own assessment of what I have communicated. There is probably a reason why you need me to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to your own summary of what I have communicated.
Again, the nature of revelation is confidence and affirmation. Whenever the Lord reveals something that is true, your spirit in your inner man receives it with clarity and confidence. It simply affirms what you already seemed to know deep down in your spirit, even though you may not have had words to express it previously. Revelation is like an “ah yes, that’s right” moment, so to speak.
If something is not clear, or it doesn’t resonate in your spirit, it is not a revelation from the Lord. Ed, if these articles have not been a revelation to you, then you should conclude that what I have said is either wrong, or it is something to ‘put on the shelf’ for later.
Jamal,
I am not going to argue with you on any view ever again. We talked about that.
I am about 95% sure that my conclusions of what YOU are saying are accurate.
It would help me if you simply said yes. That way I could be 100% sure. Or, you could clarify so that I could be 100% sure.
You keep refering to wether or not the Lord is revealing things to me. I have not at any time stated my opinions or what the Lord is revealing to me. You haven’t asked me what the Lord is revealing to me. So the fact that you keep going on about it is not helpful at all.
All I am asking is if my conclusion about your view is correct. Are you going to answer or not?
Now, you keep refering to what the Lord is revealing to me. I want to make sure I heard you correctly, test what you are saying in light of the Word, and retain what is good. Help me out here.
Is my conclusion of what you are saying correct? Not, my conclusion as to what the Lord is revealing to me. JUST, what is Jamal saying. Nothing more,but please, nothing less.
Ed,
Unfortunately, I’m not sure that I can help you out here. Here is what I can do for you, however. I will ask our Dad to give you 100% clarity of what it is that I am saying. Even if you disagree with what I am saying, at least you will not have an inaccurate assessment. Let’s put this in His hands:)
So, all I am trying to say is:
Hey Jamal, is this what you are saying?
And you won’t even say yes or no?
And all I am saying is this:
“Hey Ed, let me ask Dad to speak to you on my behalf.”
I think He is able to give you 100% accurate clarity of what I am truly saying:)
Here is what it sounds like.
Hey Jamal,
Are you saying that Louie Giglio, john Piper and the Passion Network represent the Institutional Church which is The Whore of Babylon from revelations?
Hey Ed,
I think you know what I am saying. I have been clear.
Hey Jamal,
Just so I am not mistaken, you are saying that Louie, John and Passion represent the Institutional Church which is the Whore of babylon in revelations?
Hey Ed,
I’ll ask that the Father tells you what I said.
hey Jamal,
Will you just own what you are saying?
Is there some reason you cannot just own what you said? If I am unclear then say it. If not please own it.
Cause, it sounds like you are making vague statements and not willing to own them.
Ed,
I completely stand by and own any article that is posted here on this blog. What I have written are my words. I do not think that the articles that I have written here are vague statements. Actually, I have been told that they can be quite wordy;) Ed, if after reading these numerous articles and my repeated attempts to clarify what I have said you are still not 100% clear about what I am saying, then it becomes evident to me that there is a block somewhere.
I have learned that when words fail to clarify, the Lord can make sense out of the confusion. Ed, I am sorry that you are not 100% confident regarding what I am saying. I will ask our Dad to bring clarity. I love and respect you, and this is why I have continued to dialogue with you despite our current inability to communicate.
Thank you so very much for the clarification. I will take that as a yes.
Your position is clear to me. Louie Giglio, John Piper and the Passion Network are a representation of the Institutional church which is The Whore of Babylon from the book of revelations.
You could have said yes. That would have been very helpful and less time consuming.
So if I were to explain your position to another person I don’t think I would be putting words in your mouth. I can always refer to this blog if someone needed clarification.
It helps me to dialog out loud with others. So I will probably dialog with a few people about this position. When I ask the Father to speak to me about such things I usually talk it out with others. The word says that we do well to seek wise council. So I do.
I don’t want to misrepresent the position you hold. Most people I talk to have no idea who you are so it doesn’t really matter to explain who’s position this is coming from. I want to respect you regardless of your position.
A simple yes would have really been helpful. Maybe you can save some poor chap from the frustration next time 8)
I’m excited about what Dad will reveal and truly clarify in the future for both you and those you direct to this blog. Love you brother.
I totally see what you are saying here Jamal. What I think some people miss with this whole situation is that just because “Herod” takes an interest in you does not mean it is something that God’s blessing is on. Can He use it? Of course but that doesn’t mean that is where He might be leading.
There was definitely an agenda behind Louie’s invitation and while that may not speak anything about Louie’s passion for Christ it does speak for the fact that the government seeks to extract whatever influence it can over the masses and they will do that by any means necessary. If Louie were to do the benediction at the Inauguration I bet there would be many that would believe he is signing off on the administration in office. Doesn’t matter if he (Louie) does or he doesn’t but that is exactly what “they” want to happen. Its all politics.
There is an old joke that says the root meaning of politics is poly (as in many) and tics (as in blood sucking creatures). While this is probably not the correct root behind the word I do believe it is fitting.
Sorry, my skepticism is showing.
Great comment Tika!
Its interesting that Christ was also crucified by both systems. The Jews did their obvious part, yet the Romans approved of it and even placed a mocking plank above His head saying, “Jesus, KING OF THE JEWS.”
Yet many in the Christian world push to keep both systems in power.
Very true and heartbreaking Michael. Thx for sharing this insightful comment.
When you are preaching and practicing the true gospel of Jesus Christ, it is offensive to all those who do not want Christ to sovereignly reign in their lives, and you will never be invited to take an active spiritual role in these kind of civic events.
I’m just glad you didn’t use that pesky “s” at the end of “anyway” in the title.
Kudos for the proper spelling of often misspelled words.
Mike,
Brother your comment speaks volumes to my spirit. Thanks for the encouragment. Powerful observation indeed
We need more divine appointments to speak into the President’s life… this is what we are praying for! May not come packaged the way you or I would think it should come in, but I’m praying for MORE appointments of Christians with great influence to speak into Barack Obama’s life, his family, and into America. I’m willing.
Isaiah 55:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Jamal, I just want to say, that you do an unbelievable job of responding to comments on your blog in such a Life giving way. That is Christ in you.
Heather,
Thank you for those encouraging words. That truly means a lot. Blessings to you sister:)
Jamal, I would just like to say that your responses to Ed dripped with a patronizing tone that made me sick to my stomach. I am not looking for a response but please consider that if you honestly had no such intention you desperately need to consider your manner of communication. And I would also like to ask you about something you said in this post about Giglio’s idolization and endearing fans being the natural result of the system he is operating in. It is clear from the comments on your blog that you yourself have quite the endearing fan club. Some of your compliments clearly indicate some kind of idolization going on for you. But if you are not operating in “the System,” then what would account for that? You don’t need to answer me. The answer is human nature. It is not the result of a flawed “system” but a flawed heart. Jamal, you are our brother in Christ. Consider these things.
Jessica,
Wow, where do I begin? First of all, I had no idea that you still read this blog. I am glad that you are still checking in here from time to time. That encourages me. Jessica, I know that you are not looking for a response, but I am going to give you one nonetheless. I debated about whether to send this to you publicly or privately, but since you posted your comment publicly, I am going to respond to you publicly. Jessica, I truly hope that you will not project a patronizing tone on this response as well, because that is not my heart at all. Jessica, I have been meaning to tell you some things for a long time now. I wish I had said these things to you earlier, but now is as good of a time as any.
First, let me say that you are one of the most beautiful sisters in Christ that I have ever met. When we were on that trip around the world a few years ago, I saw Jesus Christ expressed through you in ways that have caused me to fall in love with Him in a new way. When we were in India, I saw the compassion and brokenness of Christ expressed through you in a tremendously beautiful way numerous times. It melted my heart for Christ to see that in you. It affected me greatly. Christ is a strong defender of the weak. He is a rescuer. When we were in China (I think), I saw this side of Jesus Christ come out of you in a beautiful way as well. Do you remember that time that you chased off those bullies who were hurting that child? I will never forget that:)
Secondly, I want you to know that I love you. I really, really, mean that. I have always loved you and Adam. When I think of you guys, my heart smiles. There is one thing in your comment to me that I can agree with. We truly are family. You are my sister, and I am your brother. There is coming a day when all this is said and done that we will be together in community. When time and space are through, we will be spending a lot of time together ‘IN’ Christ. In that day, you will fully know my heart, and I will know yours. Nothing will seperate the life and fellowship that we have in Christ. In that day when time and space are over, we will be the best of friends. I am confident of this. You have been a tremendous blessing in my life. I thank God for you Jessica. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. It is the truth.
Jessica, can I ask a favor of you? Will you listen to a song by Brooke Fraiser about that future day that I have just described? When you listen to this song, replace the word “I” with the word “WE”. When time and space are through, “WE” (you and I) will be found together in Christ for eternity. Everything will be cleared up then. Jessica, I am choosing to live from that future day right now. Here is the link to the song. Please give it a listen:
http://youtu.be/Y4KiGN1j1No
With love,
Jamal
It always fascinates me how the system can define those that operate within it even more than the hearts of the citizens of that system. We have this need to switch from Egypt and Babylon to Christ … a different operating system that better matches what God intends for His body.
So beware the system you choose … you may seek to define it, but it will define you.
Thanks Jamal! You are an encouragement … keep running on ChristOS!
Stephen,
Great insight brother! Thanks for reading and sharing here.
Jamal
The United States of America was founded on a social contract, uniting both biblical believers and enlightenment rationalists around the shared pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Divine sovereignty was recognized yet national sovereignty was vested into the hands of the people– via the consent of the people– as President Lincoln would later famously put it, “a government of the people, by the people, for the people.”
The inauguration of the president of this country is, in large part, a ceremonial celebration of that social contract. In many places around the world the transfer of power from one government to the next is occasioned by bloody violence in the streets and through fierce oppression of the losing party. In America, because of this social contract, as strained as it may become, power transfers peaceably. A presidential inauguration is intended to be a public demonstration of peace, even in the face of ongoing bitter division. It is a declaration that this which unites us is greater than that which would divide us.
As an expression of this social contract, religious leaders have been invited to offer public prayers, without exception, at every presidential inauguration in our history. This is why Louie Giglio was invited to offer a benediction at this event. This is not a tragedy, rather it is an astonishing tradition. It bears no resemblance, biblical, historical or otherwise, to the analogy of the Pharisees and Herod, and comparing it to kissing the Papal ring is simply misplaced.
The larger issues that bear thoughtful analysis have to do with the integrity and interconnectedness of the social contract and the preservation of religious freedom.
Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts JD.
Jamal,
Just wanted to drop you a link to an article that buttresses your argument from a secular humanist perspective. I do not share the author’s view on Homosexuality(I believe it to be a sin and not God’s best), nor do I care for his malignment of Louie Giglio as a ‘vicious anti-gay’. He does however convincingly argue that mixing politics and religion is a Machiavellian principle that is all about, and only about maintaining the power of ‘The Prince’.
Here is the link to his article….
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-g-long/on-giglio-machiavelli-and-nixon-stop-the-benedictions_b_2450036.html
You might also want to check out chapter 18 of Machiavelli’s “The Prince”. It’s pretty short but it is quite telling. Many national leaders over history have been students of Machiavelli. In my opinion it should be necessary reading for all freedom loving people for the sole reason of understanding the mind of a tyrant and to a lesser extent the self serving politician.
Here is a link to ‘The Prince’ at the Gutenberg Project.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1232/1232-h/1232-h.htm#link2HCH0018
You have my permission to post this if you like in part or in whole, but I would consider the articles I gave you carefully before doing so. I provided this information mainly as a service to you.
Blessings.
For me, the question of whether God’s “leaders” should rub shoulders with political leaders isn’t about yes or no, but about “why”.
Jesus’ wisdom and revelation should be permeating all of the world and it’s systems, and if a person is called into the political (or any other system), then as long as they’re not going to puff themselves up, then I’m all for their taking a revelation of/from Christ in there and letting it fly.
Thx for reading and sharing your thoughts Trevor:)